And my boyfriend wonders why I have zero interest in shacking up with him until absolutely necessary, if/when we ever get married.

No surprises here. There is still a very real perception that some men have that once you move in with your girlie, she'll run around behind you with a wet cloth. Not to be all bitter girl, but when I was working 60 hr weeks, and my ex was unemployed, I was also expected to do all the housework. After we parted ways, I was in his apartment and it was spotless. That really told me a lot about him, and his attitudes towards women.
And here's the other thing about this whole situation: I'm now scared about ever shaking up again. Just because a man cleans his own place, doesn't mean he'll do it when it your collective place, and there's just no way to tell before it happens.
"Crazy cat lady" is looking like a better life-style choice every day. ;)

Note: this is a British study. I think there are figures available for U.S. but can't think at the moment of the ref. sorry!

Heh. I am such a slob that anyone who decides to shack up with me has got to know in advance that I am not going to be doing most of the housework. I always knew that I had a reason for being so messy--it's not just a character flaw!

EG,
Before I moved in the aforementioned ex, I was a total slob too. Now I'm a compulsive neat freak. Funny what happens sometimes. ;)

Panic,

The solution is that if he doesn’t clean, you don’t clean. If that means dust will pile up then so be it. But if you say you have seen his apartment when he lived by himself and it was spotless then most likely he does actually value cleanliness and is going to get off his ass and clean the house when he realizes that it doesn’t clean itself.

I think that this post in combination with the previous one demonstrate one thing that could contribute to this: when you live with someone, you actually have someone around to notice that that laundry pile hasn't moved in a month. Not that I don't think there are sexist explanations for this too, but I think that plain courtesy could factor in as well.

My husband and I do have to invite people over periodically, or we just let things get out of hand. If someone's coming over, we have to clean. It keeps us in check.

sojourner,
Yep that was suggested to me. I tried it. No dice. Eventually even I got to the point where I couldn't stand it anymore. The only concession I ever got was telling him (after a year) to clean up his shaving bits off the sink (ew) because there was a very real chance that if one of them strayed onto my new contact lenses, I'd be cutting up my retinas. Hard to make the same argument for coffee spills. :(
Trust me, we had a million discussions about it, and why he was the way he was, and he couldn't ever just say what he really felt: women are there to clean up after him. I actually don't even believe it was conscious on his part, it was just the way he grew up, and the patterns he falls into.
I have to note here too, that he's not an evil person by any means. This was just one of the many incompatabilities we had.

Panic, Then good for you for getting rid of him.

The last guy I was with loved to cook and clean and was great at both.

But I was more nit picky about straightening things out every day whereas he didn't mind stuff lying around for more than a day.

I think there are figures available for U.S. but can't think at the moment of the ref. sorry!

Here

That study is predictable but it sucks.
I chose a great guy to live with and we divide house work. I HATE washing dishes, so kitchen cleaning is his job. I honestly haven't washed a dish or loaded the dishwasher during all of 2007!! If he is too busy to clean up one day, I'll just let everything sit overnight. I do the laundry exclusively and we share other chores like bathroom cleaning. We have a son, so hopefully he'll learn that guys are not exempt from housework. In fact, he's five and has his own chores, like feeding the dog and wiping up the table after dinner. He also helps me fold laundry.

I don't know what this says, but my dad is an absolute neat freak who either cleans or hires someone to continuously clean my parents house.

My mother and I on the other hand leave a trail of empty diet coke cans, wrappers and napkins wherever we go.

I have always had one of the sloppier desks at my work, but have put a hex on anyone who tries to clean it, as there is order in clutter and mess.

To be honest, I don't really put a premium on cleanliness, and prefer to do a monster day of cleaning once every couple of weeks, rather than constantly worry about it.

However, I had a girlfriend who claimed that her parents would throw an absolute fit if her apartment weren't spotless. Everyone values these things differently.

About every weekend we cleaned or did chores. Growing up, my dad insisted on maids but my mom was such a perfectionist she would clean everything before they came out of pride. She insisted on doing everything herself because she wanted everything her way. Then she yelled at us for not doing anything.

oh GOSH this is bringing back memories.

When I was a kid, we had weekly cleaning chores (each of us cleaned a bathroom and our own bedroom, and had to collect our laundry and put it away after it was washed, dried, sorted, and folded). Mom cleaned the rest of the house and did the laundry (or paid one of us extra allowance to do the laundry -- including my brother at one point. Although my sister and I were never allowed to mow the lawn for extra money. We were all paid to shovel snow, or sometimes just told to do it). We had a regular schedule for when the cleaning would be done, and we all had alternating nights to do the dishes. Even though Dad never helped (except with snow-shoveling, which involved him using the snowblower, which younger brother and Mom could use, but not me and sister), it worked out pretty well, although -- us being kids -- Mom occasionally had to nag.

However, occasionally Dad would decide, out of the blue, that he wanted to clean the house (or part of it) for some reason or other. Usually this would be because no one had yet picked up their laundry from the couch (each of us had a "spot" on the couch where our clean laundry waited to be taken to our rooms). Needless to say, often his laundry would still be out as well. Even though it was perfectly fine to just leave it out most of the time, no matter how many times Mom reminded us to take up the laundry, Dad never cared until he decided he wanted to sit on the couch. Then he would ROAR that we needed to come pick up our laundry RIGHT THIS INSTANT.

This is why it pisses me off when people call me an "academic feminist." Ain't nothing academic about growing up with a sexist dad :)

Interestingly, my sister and I grew up to be slobs. My brother, however, is a total neat freak. I don't know how well I'd do living with someone who didn't clean up after himself... it may be hypocritical, but I'm about a zillion times less grossed out by my own mess, than by someone else's.

yeah, well, I wasn't exactly duped when I visted my current BF's apartment. He is a slob and he never has tried to hide that fact. I remember we were watching a rerun of Cops one night and a police officer was chastising a woman for how filthy her apartment was, how could she keep it that way with her kids, etc. etc. (there was a dude there too, but the cop didn't say anything to him, anyway, not the point of the story) And the BF says "That's not so bad". I could let our apartment get like that and I know he wouldn't mind, but I am obessive compulsive. He has accommodated me by picking up after himself , doing the dishes, and cleaning the bathroom, but I still have higher standards, that I am unwilling to let go of. So I know that if I were single, I would do less housework because I would continually be keeping the place spotless, and use coasters and stuff. The Bf makes it up in other ways, though.

I find it interesting that the study only tangentially mentions home related work that takes place outside the walls (mowing the lawn, raking leaves, etc.). As Mr. Drum points out, that with some effort, a reader of the study can determine that "men in couples do less housework than women, but they also do way more work outside the house (44 hours vs. 31 hours on average)."

hmmm...

Edo, what study are you looking at? These sociological studies meticulously take work outside the house into account. Who's Mr. Drum?

My first sentence about weekends cleaning and doing chores was about my bf and I. Growing up, I never did chores or cleaned up except after myself. I won't be a martyr like my mom.

donna darko,

Mr. Drum writes one of the most well-known blogs on the left side of the political divide (center-left, IMHO). He comments on this report and Jessica's post about it here

Mr. Drum looked at a related study to the one reported on in the BBC that Jessica discusses here. Nowhere in that very techincal labor-economics-style study is household related work that takes place outside the walls mentioned. This appears to be a flaw in the study and thus any attempts to make sociologically relevant conclusions (such as "this study adds more data to the growing body of evidence that men are terrible.") IMO.

donna darko,

Mr. Drum writes one of the most well-known blogs on the left side of the political divide (center-left, IMHO), called Political Animal. He comments on this report and Jessica's post about it here

Mr. Drum looked at a related study to the one reported on in the BBC that Jessica discusses here. Nowhere in that very techincal labor-economics-style study is household related work that takes place outside the walls mentioned. This appears to be a flaw in the study and thus any attempts to make sociologically relevant conclusions (such as "this study adds more data to the growing body of evidence that men are terrible.") are likewise flawed IMO.

What kind of household work takes place outside the walls?

Oh--you mean stuff like raking the yard? OK, got it. I would point out, though, that all households need to do the inside the walls stuff, whereas only rural and suburban households do the outside the walls stuff. Anecdotally, I think most gardening is done my women, but I could be wrong. My sample size is teeny tiny.

D'oh. Apologies for the double post. The second one is more complete.

The other thing that's relevant is that comparison isn't between how many hours of housework women do in a relationship, and how many hours of housework men do in a relationship. It's between how many hours of housework single women do and how many hours of housework women in relationships do. So even if the menfolk are taking over outside-housework, it doesn't matter: presumably, single women would have been doing the outside housework prior to their coupledom, and even with the men possibly taking it over, the number of hours women do is still going up when they take up with a man.

What kind of household work takes place outside the walls?

Raking leaves is one great example that you cite. How about car maintenance? Also, from what I read in the study linked to by Kevin Drum, household chores don't seem to include minor fix-it type projects (replacing light switches, oiling hinges, rehanging closet doors, adjusting interior doors, repairing sinks and toilets). IMHO the study is incomplete and any attempt to use it to help make larger arguments about society are weakened accordingly.

Ultimately, (again IMHO) there are lots of other great studies that do a much better job of arguing that we remain a very paternalistic society. Those of us who to hope to help to continue to change that sad and bitter reality would do better to rely on more complete studies and thus not give our foes easy targets.

Yes, but I believe earlier feminist studies of domestic labor noted that those kinds of sporadic and specific fix-it jobs are very, very different in nature and reward/acclaim from the ongoing, continuous, and never-completed nature of routine housework. I'm thinking of Christine Delphy, here. A lot of those functions are also, at least in middle-class families, no longer being done at home--the work involved is calling in a repair man, a plumber, or the super, and women do it too. Same with car maintenance--I don't know anybody who does anything more for car maintenance than drive the damn thing to a shop.

Correction, not Delphy. Arlie Hochschild. Though Delphy is cool too. She just wasn't the one I was thinking of.

Ugh, sorry for the three posts in a row, but I just wanted to say to BabyPop that you don't even have to shack up when/if you get married! Look at William Godwin and Mary Wollstonecraft!

EG - I'm right there with you. The interesting and important part of the study, as emphasized both by the authors and in its posting here, is not total hours versus total hours, but rather the directional trend - that women's work inside the home increases when they enter this kind of relationship, and men's work inside the home decreases when they enter this kind of relationship. Not that either is "lazy," as Mr. Drum seems to take away, but rather that being in a couple seems to activate certain gendered roles, for both genders.

And FYI, the earlier version of the study Drum linked to, and the table he highlights, did not say "work outside the home" in a way that appeared to include outside chores...it strongly implied paid employment. The variable said something like, "if in work" ("in work" is a very Europeanish way of saying "if in paid employment") and further specified "reported" number of hours worked "including overtime", which again is a nod to paid employment, not simply ANY work physically outside the house. As Drum rightly points out, it does not indicate in that table what category childcare would fall into. It's also interesting that Drum tends to round up when it suits him and round down when it suits him, in reporting comparative figures. Just an observation!

Car maintenance is sporadic and for many men it's a hobby. Some men even dwell on these tasks. The monotonous, tedious, daily, critical tasks such as cooking, cleanup, diapers, feeding kids, dressing kids, getting kids ready for school, are done by women.

EG,

A lot of those functions are also, at least in middle-class families, no longer being done at home--the work involved is calling in a repair man, a plumber, or the super, and women do it too.

Couldn't the same argument be made for cleaning the house? How many middle-class families call a plumber to replace a washer in a leaky faucet but don't have a cleaning service clean the toilets? None that I know of. Have you gotten an estimate from a plumber lately? Where I live they charge obscene amounts of money for the work they do (again, IMO).

I don't know anybody who does anything more for car maintenance than drive the damn thing to a shop.

How about cleaning the car? Do they all clean their own toilets but pay a car detailer to wash, wax and vacuum their cars? I think not, yet again, the study makes no mention of this. The study most closely related to the BBC article cited in the original post, makes no mention of those activities.

Do you have a citation for the studies by Hochschild and Delphy? I'd be interested in reading them.

Arlie Hochschild, exactly. If the study is about men's paid employment outside the home including overtime employment outside the home, it's easy to see why English men work 44 hours a week and women 31 hours (at home).

"How many middle-class families call a plumber to replace a washer in a leaky faucet but don't have a cleaning service clean the toilets?"

Uh...hello? Most people need a plumber to replace washers in a leaky faucet and clean their own toilets, thank you very much!

Edo, read The Second Shift by Arlie Hochschild.

How about car maintenance?

Even when I lived with my parents, I took care of my own car maintenance, even though my dad was good with cars. I always took it in to get fixed/oil changes/etc., and paid for it myself.

Also, I would kill to have a yard with a lawn to mow and leaves to rake. The money I'd save from being able to let my dog play in the yard during the day (with a doggie door), rather than having to take him to day care every day (yes, day care), would more than pay for any yard maintenance I didn't have time to do myself and had to pay someone else to do -- in fact, I'd have money left over to pay a maid too.

Similarly, things breaking down around my apartment are taken care by the landlord, because it's his property. I'm not allowed to fix this stuff because if I did something wrong, I'd be liable for any damage I caused. I do, however, have experience with minor around-the-house fix-it tasks, including painting, spackling holes from nails in the wall, minor plumbing issues, and installing things like towel racks. I've also done almost all of my electronic and telephonic wiring myself (with the exception of wiring my satellite receiver to the satellite on my roof) and have physically (and successfully) installed computer hardware and made minor electrical repairs.

Most fix-it work I would pay to have done unless the person I lived with was REALLY handy. In my experience a lot of guys pretend to be handier than they are out of some silly notion that they "ought to" be handy. That's ridiculous. I say, let's be good Americans and help out the economy by paying professionals to do it :)

Charity,

And FYI, the earlier version of the study Drum linked to, and the table he highlights, did not say "work outside the home" in a way that appeared to include outside chores...it strongly implied paid employment.

Exactly my point. The study does not include non-paid activities outside the walls of the home but related to it and thus it is flawed.

donna darko,

Car maintenance is sporadic and for many men it's a hobby.

You make some grand sweeping generalizations that seem to be founded on assertions not data. If you have some recent studies to back this up, please cite them as I'd love to read them.

As for your specific point that men do car maintenance as a hobby, I beg to differ. working on cars, upgrading parts, rebuilding engines, etc. is definately a hobby for many men and definately not maintenance. I know no man who views changing the oil in a car as a hobby.

I also know plenty of men who change diapers, cook and clean dishes, help get the kids ready for school (and bed), etc. But that's all anecdotal and thus not particularly persuasive. It's also beside the point. There are better studies to cite when making the argument that we are a paternalistic society.

How many middle-class families call a plumber to replace a washer in a leaky faucet but don't have a cleaning service clean the toilets?

That describes my house growing up. Mom did all the cleaning, even though we frequently called in plumbers and other handymen (where the problem was more than minor, of course. And when it was minor, Mom was just as likely to fix it herself).

Do they all clean their own toilets but pay a car detailer to wash, wax and vacuum their cars?

Yes, sometimes. Mom was more likely to wash her own car by hand than Dad was to wash his by hand. When Dad would wash Mom's car he would often take it somewhere to be washed for her. I don't think I ever saw him wash her car in the driveway, though Mom regularly washed her car in the driveway. Once a month, probably. And waxed it herself twice a year. And, again, Mom did all the cleaning. We had a maid once, for about a year, and even then it was only because Mom wanted to "help" the woman out by giving her a job. She still did a lot of her own cleaning anyway. The rest of my life growing up, Mom did all the cleaning (except what was allotted to us kids as chores).

I know no man who views changing the oil in a car as a hobby.

Um. If he does it himself it's almost definitely a hobby. It costs about ten to twenty bucks and takes about fifteen minutes to change the oil on an average car. There's no reason to do it himself unless he enjoys it, or is CRAZY distrustful of Jiffy Lube.

I would say that, at least in urban and semi-suburban areas, there are lots of people who call repair services and do not do car maintenance at home but clean their own houses.

I rent, so I'm not really allowed to do much home maintenance. Nor do my husband and I have the expertise. Similarly, it's tough to do car maintenance (even washing and detailing) without at least a garage and a hose.

Also, I feel okay about hiring a licensed/guilded/unionized repair person but most housecleaning services that I know of have dismal workers' rights and conditions or are run under the table, often taking advantage of illegal immigrant laborers. I can't in good conscience participate in those economies.

“How about cleaning the car?�

Edo, Did you read what Donna said? “Car maintenance is sporadic and for many men it's a hobby. Some men even dwell on these tasks. The monotonous, tedious, daily, critical tasks such as cooking, cleanup, diapers, feeding kids, dressing kids, getting kids ready for school, are done by women.�
I have not spent even one minute vacuuming, waxing or oiling my car in the past 2 years. Not because I keep my car dirty or because my man cleans my car, but because it doesn’t get that dirty and rain does the cleaning for me. However I have spent countless hours vacuuming, cooking, washing dishes, cleaning the toilet, etc. etc. And I don’t even have kids. Now if my boyfriend decided to polish the car every weekend or change the oil every month that would only be because he feels like doing so, not because it is needed. And if he tried to use that as an excuse to get out of ‘real’ housework he would be a total asshole. How many times a year do you need to do any plumbing work or how often do you polish your car?

A side note: my husband does nearly all the cleaning (though not all the cooking) in our house. This is because I have a ridiculously demanding work schedule and he does not work outside the home. But it basically reproduces the gender binary in polar opposite, and therefore is fraught with the same problematic power dyunamics. It's interesting, but not the best way to accomplish an egalitarian marriage.

And Edo, you missed MY point. The take-away message is not that "men are terrible," as Mr. Drum projects onto the study. The take-away message is, look at this directional trend, what does it say about the roles and responsibilities we take on and fall into when we enter hetero-"normative" couplehood, and what does that say about Western culture (and beyond)? I think you're being defensive for little reason.

FYI, as someone who has lived in Britain (given that the study utilizes data from a survey of British households) I can tell you with some confidence that there is much less need of raking and shoveling in Britain. If you are lucky enough to have a yard, even in a suburb, mind you, it is postage-stamp-sized and likely does not have more than one tree. Much more popular are flower and vegetable gardens, and anecdotally, that is also considered women's domain. There is little snow to speak of. If you continue plugging the car maintenance thing in the absence of those other outdoor chores, I think that's reaching just a tad far. "IMO", LOL!

“As for your specific point that men do car maintenance as a hobby, I beg to differ. working on cars, upgrading parts, rebuilding engines, etc. is definately a hobby for many men and definately not maintenance.�
Well, I know no man who rebuilds their engine or upgrades auto parts by themselves. And no I can’t afford to hire somebody clean my toilet. I wouldn’t want to anyways. I wouldn’t want a stranger in my house and like legally Blondeez said housecleaning services are usually exploitive. And anyways in my house when I was growing up we had a housekeeper who would stay till late afternoon, look after the kids and make lunch. Yet my other was still always cleaning and cooking and scrubbing when she got back from work, because housework UNLIKE AUTOMOBILE MAINTENANCE is just continuous and never-ending.

The Law Fairy,

As long as we're sharing personal stories, my Dad did virtually all the dishes in my family (still does). The rule was/is whoever cooks doesn't clean up; Mom is a fine cook and enjoys it--Dad not so much. Dad did all the car and house maintenace, and all the yard maintenance. When cars were washed, he did it (this did not happen much). They never called a plumber or electrician. Dad did all the minor and major repairs. Dad also was the active parent in the parent-cooperative nursery school where my brothers and I went prior to Kindergarten. (he often refers to this as some of the most fun and exhausting "work" he's ever done--having been a coop parent myself a few times, I have to agree).

Dad even cooked occassionally (yep, this included Saturday morning waffles--the quintesstial American Dad culinary activity, IMO); no Mom did not do all prep work or shopping before Dad cooked it. Not surprisingly, I do the house maintenance, clean the kitchen and yes, even do some of the laundry. I also happen to cook 70% of the meals my family eats (no, I don't consider breakfast of milk and cereal a "meal", yes, I am typically the one who cleans it up--and my kids now serve themselves). I changed a lot of diapers and gave my kids lots of baths. I also take out the garbage and do all the yard maintenace (we have several 100 year old Oak trees--its hard to exaggerate how much time it takes dealing with the leaves).

My Mom was/is a superstar; my Dad was/is a superstar. The woman who choose me as a husband is a superstar, and I'm trying my best to keep up. I'm not really sure how relevant all this is to any arguments related to society as a whole, though.

soujourner,

Well, I know no man who rebuilds their engine or upgrades auto parts by themselves.

Nitpick much? Okay, let me rephase "upgrades specific parts of their cars with aftermaket parts". that help? And I know serveral men that do rebuild engines as hobby. So what?

The study does seem to indicate that leisure time for both sexes is about equal, because the men are working more outside the home while the women are working more on chores and such.

In other words, most couples in the UK are still following traditional gender roles.

My wife and I have talked more than once about what would happen if we had more than 2 kids. We're like most folks in that I make a bit more than she does, which means that if one of us was going to quit working outside the home, it would be easier for us it was her. Except that she'd go crazy, but that's a separate issue.

I'm a midwestern man in his mid-30s, and I do all my home repairs unless it's something that's completely out of my league. So I'd like to see that kind of work be included in these sorts of studies.

But I can tell you flat out that most men my age don't fix leaky faucets, or change their own oil. They might mow the lawn, but if the mower won't start, they have no idea what to do. But I still want to see those figures in the study because I think it's important to be thorough.

Charity,

The take-away message is, look at this directional trend, what does it say about the roles and responsibilities we take on and fall into when we enter hetero-"normative" couplehood, and what does that say about Western culture (and beyond)?

And my point is that if you want to make some points regaring "Western culture (and beyond)" (LOL), then surely there are lots of better studies upon which to support those points.

MikeT,

But I still want to see those figures in the study because I think it's important to be thorough.

Exactly.

Edo, my anecdote was relevant because you opined that households like mine didn't exist. I was demonstrating that they do. I disproved your negative.

However, I am not sure what the point of your reciprocal anecdote was -- unless we've gone from argument to storytime. Which is fine. 'Cause I think we won :)

But, more seriously, I think you're taking what we're saying a little personally, which could be the problem here. We're NOT saying men are lazy and need to do more work. We're saying that it certainly appears, from this study, that marriage enforces stereotypical gender roles. I don't think that's particularly controversial or offensive. Most of us here don't like traditional gender roles because we find them limiting. And of course, there are always exceptions, and it sounds like your family is included there. But the fact that we're making progress doesn't mean we clap our hands and go home. There's still lots of work left to do, and this study is one indicator of how much.

OK, well, if there are better studies, maybe you'd like to take the trouble to find them. You have every right to raise questions about methodology, but now you have simply started refuting our common-sense observations (which are just as common-sense as your own) for its own sake. All I can see from your argument is that you've been strongly impacted by your OWN personal experience (and that's understandable, but if you're holding it up as evidence of the "untold story" of men's household contributions, you're perpetrating similar methodological no-no's).

There are likely ways of finding out--whether or not you choose to acknowledge or pursue them, as that would weaken your argument--how much time per week is spent (or could POSSIBLY be spent) on things like raking leaves, which is seasonal and not a daily activity, or things like repairing a faucet or fixing electrical wiring, which likely does not happen on a daily, weekly, or even monthly basis, and for most apartment-dwellers and a good amount of homeowners, is performed by a third party. REGARDLESS of who does these chores / tasks, a reasonable person would recognize they are simply not as time-consuming as many things that take place "inside the walls." Which is a great prison phrase, incidentally.

Ah! No I am not trying to nitpick. Maybe I should have added, but every woman I know spends hours every week on house work.
“And I know serveral men that do rebuild engines as hobby. So what?�
That’s the point. They do it as hobby. They don’t *have* to do it. Therefore it doesn’t count as housework. Otherwise, you know, I am going to claim knitting as housework. I spend 1 hour knotting everyday so I shouldn't have to wash the dishes.

And further, Edo, are you proposing that men do more of the activities you describe AFTER they enter couplehood, versus when single (and conversely, that women do less after entering couplehood)? Or the same amount, or less? Because that would be the additional level of description / analysis necessary to compare / contrast that category of household work with the categories that were addressed by the study, and draw / change conclusions about gender roles in couplehood.

donna darko,

read The Second Shift by Arlie Hochschild.

thanks for the recommendation.

The Law Fairy,

I think you made quite a leap from my questioning how many middle-class households call plumbers, but don't have maids to me stating that they don't exist. But I agree, we won!

soujourner,

They do it as hobby. They don’t *have* to do it. Therefore it doesn’t count as housework.

and I never said rebuilding engines should be counted as housework.
As for knitting...don't even get me started. I only mentioned car maintenance (changing the oil, vacuuming it out, etc.) as one example of something related to housework. Do cars need to be clean? Do beds need to be made? Do lawns need to be raked and weeded?

Charity,

things like raking leaves, which is seasonal and not a daily activity

Tell that to the 3 redwood trees that overhang our house. Cleaning the bathroom is not a daily chore in my house.

Do more of the couples have children than the singles? That could account for an overall increase in housework.

Lifestyle changes could account for even more. Couples, in my experience, are more likely to cook and eat in than singles. They are also more likely to entertain others where they live while singles are likely to go out more often.

Obviously, these observations are based on personal experience only, but if true (in general) they could explain an overall increase in housework for couples (i.e. two people living together create more housework than they would have as singles combined).

Just a thought.

Charity,

...are you proposing that men do more of the activities you describe AFTER they enter couplehood...

I'm proposing that that would be an interesting study and would likely be a much more solid foundation upon which to make arguements that we as a society remain suboptimal and need to continue to change. And specifically, that because this study apparently ignores lots of routine activities that are "continuous and never-ending" it is a poor foundation upon which to help foster change.

"How many middle-class families call a plumber to replace a washer in a leaky faucet but don't have a cleaning service clean the toilets?"

All of the ones that I know.

Noname, your observations make sense to me but the issue is not whether the overall burden increases, but that one gender's burden (of the household tasks included in the study) increases while the other's decreases.

Edo, if we haven't managed to convince you that things like faucet repair, leaf-raking and oil changes--assuming that men engage in AND bear a disproportionate burden of such tasks, of which you have nothing but anecdotal evidence at this point, and therefore remains a mere, and big, assumption--are NOT in fact "continuous and never-ending" (you're kidding, right?), then you are deliberately being obtuse (a great phrase someone else used here recently and I will happily co-opt). Best of luck to you.

EG,

All of the ones that I know.

And none of the ones that I know.

Charity,

If I haven't been able to convince you that this study is flawed and thus opens the door for anti-progressives to challenge it and thus the need for change, then you too are being deliberatley obtuse (which, I agree, is a great word).

Edo, we won, you lost. Just making that clear.

"You make some grand sweeping generalizations that seem to be founded on assertions not data. If you have some recent studies to back this up, please cite them as I'd love to read them." -Edo

The Second Shift said only 20% of couples shared domestic duties equally. Very depressing. Neglect of home and children was the second cause of divorce after mental cruelty. It beat financial problems, physical abuse, drinking and infidelity as the main cause of divorce. Women do more things that are done on a rigid routine while men tend to do what they want when they want to. Men feel no conflict between their job and raising a child. Women often feel like single mothers and work a second shift. Men fetishize their second shift: taking care of the dog, changing the oil in the car, baking pies. His time is more sacred than hers. Men do an extra month of 24-hour days a year of housework compared to men. This leaves women tired, sick, resentful, drained and anxious.

Read: A Housekeeper Is Cheaper Than a Divorce: Why You Can Afford to Hire Help and How to Get It

Your views are based on anecdotal evidence which seem to be outliers. You don't know anyone who can clean their own toilet. You're like one of the only 2% of married men that are stay-at-home-dads. Do you work outside the home? You can't find studies that refute what studies have shown all along. You are using your own bizarre anecdotal evidence to make it about teh menz which is trolling on feminist blogs.

Edo, we won, you lost. Just making that clear.

I didn't realize it was a contest. Congratulations on your success.

The Second Shift said only 20% of couples shared domestic duties equally. Very depressing.

That is very depressing. Thanks again for the reference.

Men feel no conflict between their job and raising a child.

Not this man, not my brother. Not my brother-in-law.

Men fetishize their second shift: taking care of the dog, changing the oil in the car, baking pies.

Changing the diapers. Rocking the infant asleep when teething. Yep, I sure "fetishized" these "second shift" activities. Not. Just a few qualifies would sure make those statements more salient: "most men" "a majority of men" "often men will"...any of those things.

So, Edo, are you an "anti-progressive"? Because now I'm confused - are you challenging the study because it makes men look bad and because you're an exception whose feelings are hurt, or because, in being methodologically "flawed," it leaves "us feminists" open to criticism from those who disagree with us, which weakens our collective credibility (collective meaning you included)? Just curious, because so gosh-darned many commenters seem to start off identifying themselves in one way and then exposing themselves as someone of a completely different ideology than that they originally claimed. (By the way, you've still failed to demonstrate your assertion that *substantive* household work was left out - which seems to be your basis for arguing that the study was flawed. You've yet to prove anything you've identified is a) substantive in terms of the time it takes, relative to other household tasks or b) disproportionately done by men. You've relied only on your own hunches and personal experience. I'm guessing you don't design or critique studies for a living, LOL.)

“and I never said rebuilding engines should be counted as housework.�

I thought that’s exactly what you said. Otherwise why idid yu bring it up at all? Since we aren’t talking about hobbies and only about chores.

“As for knitting...don't even get me started.�

Go ahead I am curious to hear what you have to say about knitting.

“I only mentioned car maintenance (changing the oil, vacuuming it out, etc.) as one example of something related to housework.�
Can you please tell me how often you vacuum your car? How often do you change your oil? It can’t possibly be more than every three months can it? (even if we ignore the fact that it’s so easy to have it done at the garage for like $20.)

And re plumbing, every homeowner I that know hires a plumber. But whatever. You and your friends do your own plumbing. How many times a year do you need to do plumbing? Can you please tell us that? How many hours a week do you spend plumbing?

Your views are based on anecdotal evidence which seem to be outliers. You don't know anyone who can clean their own toilet.

What are you talking about? Where do I say I don't know anyone who can clean their own toilet? Where do I say what my "views are"? All I'm saying is that the study related to the original post is flawed and that there are either better studies out there or there will be. I guess we have different definitions of trolls. For instance, I go with this one:

...intentionally tries to cause disruption, often in the form of posting messages that are inflammatory, insulting, incorrect, inaccurate, absurd, or off-topic...

Now you may accuse me of being inaccurate, fair enough. But inflammatory? off-topic? insulting? If I have insulted you, I apologize that was not my intent.

Do you work outside the home?

Yes. And I'm not a stay at home Dad. You make some pretty big leaps there.

I know, I know: you won. Got it.

“Changing the diapers. Rocking the infant asleep when teething. Yep, I sure "fetishized" these "second shift" activities.�
Well good for you Edo. But you are confusing me now. I thought your point was that this study doesn’t take into account work that is done outside the house which is more often done by men. Changing diapers and rocking babies to sleep occurs inside the walls and is included in this study. This and other studies have already shown that women do a disproportionately large share of it compared to men. There is no study that shows the opposite and you know what? We have known that for like 6000 years so we don’t need studies to show us that.
Any how, my point is that the diaper changing baby rocking thing doesn’t fit into your argument.

I wrote a little bit of the study on my blog.

here

soujourner,

At the risk of being a troll, I mentioned rebuilding car engines as being a hobby to differentiate it from changing the oil, which is maintenance and thus not a hobby-related activity. Someone else brought up the whole hobby thing, not me.

Go ahead I am curious to hear what you have to say about knitting.

Knitting is a wonderful hobby that my wife enjoys. She does it alot and I don't begruge her one minute of it.

Can you please tell me how often you vacuum your car?

Not nearly as often as we should. Same with the carpets.

There is no study that shows the opposite and you know what? We have known that for like 6000 years so we don’t need studies to show us that.

Agreed. And nowhere did I ask for or mean to imply that such a study that "shows the opposite" exists or should exist.

I'm going to jump into this debate with a great big personal experience story: I went into my first marriage thinking I wasn't going to clean up after anybody, and when I found myself stuck in that role, I tried the strategy mentioned by sojourner that if he didn't clean, I wouldn't clean. Things got so bad that my family once hired us a cleaning service for christmas.
The worst part was the fights we had about it: it became clear pretty quickly that the house was considered my responsibility, even though I was a graduate student AND holding down two additional jobs. There was no yard to speak of --we were in a townhouse -- and I knew more about cars than my ex did, and also knew more about home repair and therefore did more home and auto repair. I even had to pay all the bills, otherwise they wouldn't get paid. It becomes a situation in which your own life will fall apart if you don't maintain *everything*.
I am seven years out of that marriage, about to move in with a new man, and am dead terrified of going through the same thing again, even though the BF is pretty much the anti-ex (for obvious reasons).
So kudos to you, Edo, and all other men working on an egalitarian household. I think that's awesome! But survey or no survey, good old fashioned experience has since taught me that my situation was the rule rather than the exception. There are a lot of men who still think that bringing home a paycheck, even if it's one of two paychecks, is all they have to do in a marriage.
--Although they probably don't spend a lot of time on this board ;)

Charity,

are you challenging the study because it makes men look bad and because you're an exception whose feelings are hurt, or because, in being methodologically "flawed," it leaves "us feminists" open to criticism from those who disagree with us, which weakens our collective credibility (collective meaning you included)?

The latter. Apparently that was not obvious, and I apologize for not being more clear about that.

sunspots,

So kudos to you, Edo, and all other men working on an egalitarian household.

Thanks, but in my case, the kudos go to my parents who modeled such behavior.

Best of luck in your new household! The recap of the first one makes me shudder.

I won't/can't/shouldn't answer for Edo, but I can answer for myself. I'm a feminist and a progressive, but I'm frustrated by studies that bemoan our lack of progress toward gender neutrality in household maintenance, but ignore those parts of household maintenance that are traditionally relegated to men.

I take pleasure in fixing a bum outlet or a leaky faucet largely because it feels like I'm contributing in a meaningful way to my family's well being. And I lose at least a Saturday or two each month to various Honey-Dos around the house.

Yeah, I could hire it done, but you can also hire out the laundry, and the cleaning, and the cooking. But then I'd have to work a lot of extra hours to pay for all that stuff, and that's time away from my family.

I totally understand what Sunspot and many others are saying (my wife's first husband was the same way), but I worry that ignoring the home maintenance stuff that's traditionally been "men's work" doesn't help.

MikeT,

Exactly right. I wish I had stated it earlier in such clear terms (clear to me, anyway).

Yes, Mike, but there is a significant difference between "losing a couple of Saturdays a month" and devoting a significant portion of time, each day, every day, to necessary maintenance work. Even calling it "Honey-Dos" suggests that the responsibility for making sure the work is done lies with the wife: she's the one who notices that something is leaking or chipping or whatever it is that people who own homes have to put up with, and she has to draw it to her husband's attention, and request that it be fixed. That's radically different from waking up and knowing that today, like yesterday and tomorrow, you have to pack lunch for the kids, wash the dishes, and vaccuum the floors, or whatever.

Thanks, Edo. After I wrote it all down, it made me shudder too!

I think the point may be that the 'invisible' daily work is the subject of these studies for the very reason that it is often invisible to the members of the household who aren't participating. It's not on a list that someone can give you, you usually don't get thanked for doing it, and it can't be compressed into a weekend, and it's easily undone, so it's constant. Faucets don't leak every day, but dishes will pile the next day no matter what you do the day before...and lord, I cannot tell you how much more eager I am to fix my faucet than to wash those dishes.
Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying what's being called 'men's work' isn't important to a household, but as someone who has done plenty of both, I do think it's a different *kind* of work. It's stuff that can be tackled on a saturday, as you say, and not a dawn to dusk phenomenon.
I think a household that divides work based on personal strengths rather than presumed gender proclivities, or doesn't divide work at all and takes turns, would be my egalitarian 'ideal,' but all too often we enter relationships just assuming that HE will fix the faucet and SHE will wash the clothes.

oops, and that "as you say" re: Saturday work is in reference to MikeT's post. Got lost in my own rhetoric again...

My husband and I both grew up with one parent who did all the housework - my mom and his dad. So before we got married, we were both very careful to make an agreement about household chores. We usually work on small home repairs together because we both love that kind of stuff and look for any excuse to go to Home Depot, so that was a no-brainer. Everything else had to be worked out:

1. Neither of us has to deal with our least favorite chore: dishes for me, laundry for him.

2. If you insist that something be done in a certain way, then you have to do it. I am exceptionally picky about how the groceries and dishes are put up, so I do that. He has some obsessive system about how clothes are organized in our closet and drawers, so he puts them all up himself after I wash them.

3. Everything else (inside the house) we rotate weekly or do together.

4. We're flexible enough so that if either of us is sick, he's having a crazy schedule at work or I'm overwhelmed at school, the other will take up the slack, but that is usually limited to weeks when he is on call or finals week.

5. We clean the car together, repairs go to the mechanic, and I don't mess with his motorcycle because that's his hobby.

6. We have a lawn service to take care of the yard, but the vegetable garden is my hobby, and thus my responsibility.

7. Because no one wants food poisoning (again) or see the house burn down (he has actually started a small fire), I cook dinner. We rotate making kids' lunches and each make our own, but he has a special gift for breakfast, so that's his area.

We didn't write them down or anything formal like that (although we recently put everything on a chore chart so that our daughter sees more clearly that we all take part in keeping the house together), but having the agreement before we lived together really helped us avoid a lot of problems over the past nine years. I highly recommend laying out expectations in this area before-hand. Of course, the agreement will only work if both sides are equally committed to holding up their ends of the bargain. Luckily, we both have.

First of all, I think the results of a study that included what two posters here call "men's work" might be quite surprising to them. Sure, men participate in that work and might often or usually be the ones who decide it needs to be done, but I remember when I was telling one of my college TAs about how all the work in our house was done by my mom and me. Then I mentioned, "but my dad did do a lot of the work outside, although we all helped in that." She kind of frowned at me like she knew something I didn't, and said, "but in what capacity? What exactly did he do?" I thought back on it and said, "Well, he usually knew what needed to be done, so he would oversee our..." And then I stopped myself because I realized what I was saying, and my TA said, "So he directed the work." I was like, "Exactly." It might sound silly, but that was a pretty big revelation to me, because before that I'd always told myself that his share in the outside work at least somewhat made up for his lack of doing any household chores at all. But through some pretty crazy mental gymnastics, I somehow managed to completely discount the fact that my mother, brother and I did just as much, if not more, of the yardwork than he did.

And furthermore, the thing is (and again with the anecdotal evidence, I know) this is how most of the families I knew growing up were. When it came to outside chores, everybody participated. Sure, in a lot of cases it was the husband who decided what needed to be done and knew how to do it, but the kids and mom were always there helping out, usually taking his directions, which of course adds a whole new gender role concern to the equation. Ditto for car work, even if it was just little things like holding flashlights or flipping on turn signals, hitting the brakes, etc. while my dad stood behind the car to see if the corresponding lights were working. Outside work is not typically men's work -- it's family work. But because dad's usually the one doing the directing, it's seen as men's work. And of course, we still haven't seen any response to the fact that a substantial portion of the population, even in the U.S., live in apartments, townhomes, or rent houses/parts of houses. In these situations, you're almost never allowed to do yardwork or home repairs. (And those with condos might be responsible for the inside of their place, but all outside work is done by the condo association.) So keep in mind that arguments about yardwork and home repairs don't even apply to a lot of people.

And oh, don't even get me started on car vacuuming -- I always had to do that for my dad, and the carpet was crusty. I'm pretty damn messy, but even I have no idea how the entire carpet on the passenger side managed to become completely encrusted! :)

My dad who can cook and clean perfectly well on his own had a lot more leisure time. Of course, he's the one who insisted on help which my mom refused. But he had a ton of time to be creative, have a ton of hobbies and do whatever he wanted while my mom was busy busy busy twenty-four hours a day. It's a ton of work raising three kids without outside help. It's more than twenty-four hours a day as the say goes. A woman's work is never done. You can say her pride and perfectionism in refusing help was her own problem but the issue in this thread is cultural expectations. It's a woman's pride and expectation to have a nice, clean house and that's why coupled women do more housework than single woman.

When women find their self-fulfillment through work in the public sphere, they will find less fulfillment in the private sphere and spend a lot less time keeping the house nice and clean. One of my sisses-in-law works 80 hour weeks and does no cooking or cleaning. I think that's great.

Well! Since we're sharing stories... ;)

I find this interesting. My father was the primary caregiver until I was about 10, then he started his own business that cut into more and more of his time, until he was working 60 hours a week, my mother 40 and doing most of the cooking and cleaning. I don't know if that's relevant or not, but one good thing my father did was teach me (determinedly) to be a person, not a "girl" :)

Now, I work part-time and study part-time. My partner works full-time, which is about 50 hours a week. I do very little housework. I live in his house, he pays for most things. I'm not overly comfortable with this, but I'm poor.

He usually cooks, he also usually does dishes. He usually instigates washing, even if he's not around to hang it out or whatever. I take care of my foster-kittens, and that's about it.

I feel like this is completely unfair, but quite apart from being a natural slob, I am quite scared of falling into traditional gender roles.

My partner is definitely not the kind of person to take me for granted, or believe in "mens" or "womens" work. But the idea of cooking and cleaning for my partner freaks me out

I need to get over this, so our house can be livable! I believe in EQUALITY, not reverse-discrimination, and that's basically what I'm propogating

Interesting, anyway

Oh, and one more thing. I don't think it's discriminatory for each person (of either sex, in any pairing) to do what they're comfortable with.

I like children: my partner has a lot more patience and enthusiasm. He'd make a great full-time Dad, whereas I don't think I'd be a fantastic f/t mother.

I want to be a vet and would be happy to work long hours and support him once I have a stable position. He has always worked as a means to an end, and finds his job stressful

If I was working he would fill his days - he's pretty happy cleaning when he has TIME and ENERGY. He enjoys baking, so I'd have yummy food. He could do lots of exercise and play with our dogs and do sketches and go hunting and do the things he enjoys. I go mad if I'm not active

So I think it's an individual thing, but expecting any one person to take the load when you're equally busy is unfair *blush*

First of all, this study only applies to Britain and can't really tell us much about US families.

Second, it's apparent when you dig into the polls that the difference in housework is negated by the difference in work outside of the house. To argue that men should both work more than women outside of the home and do equal work to women in the home is awfully convenient. This is why the same study found that women had more leisure time despite working more often at home.

Also, despite whehter all families need to do yard work, or shovel snow or service vehicles, these activities should clearly be defined as household upkeep and as such should have been included in any study measuring that or it will skew the numbers no matter how slightly. Also, Law Fairy, you have to understand that a lot of people can't afford to pay other people to change their oil as often as it needs to be changed. As a result, most people in rural areas do it themselves. I'd caution watching your class bias when making statements like that.

So while I'm not going to pretend these numbers apply to most of us, or that women aren't unfairly treated by society, this study simply doesn't say what you're all saying it does. It's finding that men and women do equal "work" even if it's not equal "housework".

My dad has done t