Allow me to express an anal pet peeve: Espresso.

That's all I got.

They even have pictures of them off duty?? I watched a movie last night entitled Idiocracy (by Mike Judge, same guy who did Office Space) and the Starbucks of the future was giving out lattes - code for hand jobs... and here I thought it was just a joke.

This is by far one of the most ridiculous things I've seen in a really long time. If they were actually uniforms, then I might just blow it off and chalk it up to a standard bull-shit excuse to objectify women...which, you know, makes me mad enough, but this is so much worse.

I looked at the website and it seems like a really bad stunt. At least if they were all dressed alike it would look pseudo-professional, but a bunch of girls in different kinds of underwear just looks silly. and Cowgirl Espresso? what the hell do cowgirls have to do with it?

another thing that really bothered me was that working an espresso bar in your underwear doesn't seem safe. I was a barista for a few years and I still have some burn scars. Fortunately mine are on my forearms and not on my stomach/thighs/tits. Christ, I don't know how they get girls to do this crap....

And for MINIMUM WAGE? even starbucks pays more than minimum wage.

As a former barista and coffee connoisseur, I find that udderly offensive. Seriously- they are going to diss espresso with scantily clad women?

Cowgirls is a complete shithole, as far as Seattle is concerned. No one with any respect for women, or really for humans in general, lets themselves get dragged there more than once, if that. It hardly counts as surprising that they'd do something like this -- the rest of the place is no better.

i completely dont understand many aspects of that place...why dont those girls just be strippers for chrissake? i mean its pretty much the same thing (not all strippers are nude ya know..some even are required to wear pasties/bras) just your making a hell of alot more than minimum wage!

What sort of self-esteem must a woman have to weigh the following decision: "I could either work at Starbucks, which borders on the side of evil, but pays more than minimum wage and has health insurance, and I could wear actual clothes, OR I could make $5.15 an hour parading around in my knickers! Leering and lattes! Sold!"

I mean seriously. What is going on with these women that this was the logical choice?

I wouldn't like to be near one of those machines near naked.

Interestingly, off duty they all appear to prefer being fully clothed in t-shirts and jeans. Which should tell the customers something.

this made me want to cry.

sometimes i feel like im just never going to understand the world im forced to live in.

thedivineash:

I'm right there with you. It makes me really sad for the future when I see stuff like this.

Sometimes, I just want to move out to the middle of nowhere and start a farm or something. But then I remember, if I want to change the world I live in, I have to actually live in it.

"What sort of self-esteem must a woman have to weigh the following decision: "I could either work at Starbucks, which borders on the side of evil, but pays more than minimum wage and has health insurance, and I could wear actual clothes, OR I could make $5.15 an hour parading around in my knickers! Leering and lattes! Sold!"

I mean seriously. What is going on with these women that this was the logical choice?"

Eesh. I don't know. I went to college with a girl who worked at a Hooters, and she said the same thing about tips being shitty--but at least she didn't have to operate an espresso machine (steam burns are so much worse) nearly naked.

All that aside, isn't there some kind of health code violation there too? I mean, seriously.

I don't know what it says about the women- maybe they're exhibitionists?

I'm waaaay more disturbed/angry at the customers who frequent places like this, and the management who think that this is a good idea than I am at the women who choose to work there, personally.

I too am amazed anyone would voluntarily work at such a job. It makes about as much sense to me as the women who participate in those "Girls Gone Wild" videos. Then again, the GGW women at least have being drunk and/or harboring naive dreams of her GGW appearance somehow catapulting her into instant celebrity (thank you, reality TV!) as excuses. As others have pointed out, you can make more money with your clothes ON at Starbucks, and more with them OFF as a stripper if that's what floats your boat--so why do it there for minimum wage?
Are they giving away free tshirts, or something?

RoymacIII:

Yeah I agree with you. The women wouldn't be in such big demand if there wasn't a large male customer base. And I'm sure plenty of the customers would say that they "respect women" too. I know a few guys like this. Ugh.

isn't there some kind of health code violation there too?

Pubic hairnets?

Some of them are probably just desperate for employment. Not everyone can work at Starbucks, you know, regardless of their ridiculous number of locations. I assume the place has an extremely high turnover rate. They probably work for a month or so, get a little barista experience, and leave the second they get another job.

And yes, it sounds really dangerous. It must be lots of fun to work all day with a burn on your stomach.

The only other thing I have to say is that I am SO FUCKING TIRED of businesses trying to boost their profits by turning women into the product. That's really all I can say.

I really don't know what to say to this. I know that sex sells and I know that it especially sells to women but sheesh. If these women WERE exhibitionists then they'd get more kicks just being half naked for free or earning a lot more in tips as an actual stripper, as some have already pointed out.

I can't imagine that there are no jobs at any of the Starbucks in these neighborhoods so really I can't wrap my mind around why any woman would want to do this, aside from this comment:

[I]"Your customers freakin' adore you. Everybody's excited to see you," Law said. "You spend a few minutes with them and they leave."[I]

Um, yeah, and, AGAIN, I can think of a few more jobs where that applies and you'd still make more money.

It must make these men feel like freakin' geniuses to know that they can get women to go skimpy for either no pay or minimum wage and they can make all the big bucks.

The minimum wage in Washington is the highest in the country, almost $8. So, at the very least, they're not doing this for $5.15.

Allow me to express an anal pet peeve: Espresso.

Sooo with you, Lucizoe.

This article makes me all kinds of mad. Clearly people like this don't give a shit about my business, in spite of the fact that I regularly purchase a 4-dollar coffee in the morning, PLUS I often get a cup of fruit or yogurt. In addition, I frequently purchase gift cards for friends and family.

But who cares about teh womenz, right (at least, if we're straight and/or have no interest in objectifying teenage girls)? Yeah... Starbucks will be keeping my business, TYVM. Good to know I'm doing my part to ensure their barristas are paid a decent wage AND allowed to wear clothing to boot.

OH -- also. Everyone I know who's ever worked at Hooters reports the tips are shitty.

I do not understand how people can't get it through their heads that people who don't respect women aren't about to hand them a cent more than they have to to get what they want.

Having been a waitress at an establishment where the uniform was a sensible black polo shirt with the restaurant's logo embroidered near the collar, and clean white or black slacks or skirts, and neat hair kept out of your face, I can report that my best tips were always from women. If the woman paid, I could expect a better tip. If it was a group of women with no men, I could expect the best tips of all. Almost without exception, the women tipped much better than the men.

Also, my boss (one of my former college professors) was an awesome awesome person. He was a serious feminist and one time almost kicked a customer out for hitting on me. I still keep in touch with him.

Oh this is sad - I know one of the young women pictured on the site.

If these women WERE exhibitionists then they'd get more kicks just being half naked for free or earning a lot more in tips as an actual stripper, as some have already pointed out.

I just found it puzzling that some people were more interested in blaming or attacking the women involved (some of whom, I believe the article says, are still in highschool). I mean, yeah, I don't think that they're helping matters, but, really, I guess I expected to see more outrage at the customers and owners, and less "What's wrong with these women? They could make more money as strippers or at Starbucks"- which I'm not sure is true, anyway. Around my area, at least, Starbucks doesn't let you tip, but the article seems to suggest that these girls are making pretty good tips "she makes more in tips than she ever did as a waitress at Hooters. One recent morning, she served 400 customers between about 6 a.m. and noon." Even if only half of them tipped, and they gave her a dollar, that's still $200 for six hours work, which is a lot better than she'd do at Starbucks.

That bugs me. Like someone else said, I know that "sex sells," but... man... businesses like this... Bah.

They sell coffeemakers for like 9.99 at the grocery store, and the cashiers are fully clothed.

I read this article in the paper Tuesday. Later, I mentioned it to one of my customers and he told me that he won't buy from Cowgirls, but he has noted that the lines there are quite long in the morning. So, there are a lot of sorry men paying for this rise and shine service.

Finally, an ironic bit. The other paper in town (Seattle P-I) ran an article with an ironic twist: a man accused of stalking a barista pleaded not guilty in court.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/300712_stalker23.html

I just found it puzzling that some people were more interested in blaming or attacking the women involved
I don't see any attacking or blaming anywhere. I do see a lot of, what were they thinking? and why would a young woman be willing to do this? since it's so overtly exploitative, and some speculation on the possible answers to those questions, but that is (IMO, anyhow) neither "attacking" nor "blaming."

Oh this is sad - I know one of the young women pictured on the site.
Any chance you could ask her what reasons led her to work there?
I think a lot of us are wondering.

roymacIII is right. If one woman can serve 400 customers in six hours, and they are tipping even reasonably well, I can definitely see why these women take this job. Fox News interviewed one of the baristas and she made a big deal over the money she was making (I don't think she was gushing over her barista salary).

Asking a woman to operate an espresso machine, or (worse) a milk steamer, in her undies is just ridiculous. I mean, they may as well ask her to fry bacon while they're at it.

Tips at normal coffee shops are supposed to be really, really good, or at least they are at Cups (the local chain). There's no specified uniform, but the dress code is flexible; sometimes during the summer a coffee server will wear not much more than one of the women in those photographs, but that's her decision, which is completely different from saying "If you want to work here, strip down." Of course Cups has both male and female servers, and it's woman-owned.

Yes, I like looking at a woman's body. Heterosexual men generally do. I also like to hear a woman sing--but that doesn't mean I want my bank teller to do it. Something tells me that these kinds of businesses do not attract a customer base made up of healthy, well-adjusted males who just enjoy looking at women in underwear, but rather a customer base of men who get some kind of charge out of the power differential involved. Same with Hooters in many cases, though I hear Hooters at least has good wings. I don't know because I haven't been there, and I'm not going there, either, on general principle.

I do find it fascinating that the tips at Hooters suck relative to other restaurants. I wonder if that's the first tangible proof we can point to in saying that men who patronize businesses like that most likely don't "respect women"--quite the opposite.

Anyway, my bet is that businesses like Cowgirls and Hooters will ultimately suffer market saturation, since the gimmick of mandatory skimpy uniforms is the draw, and not the product. Add in the fact that they alienate at least half of their potential client base with this garbage, and you've got a recipe for bankruptcy.

Cheers,

TH

I consider myself a feminist and I'd personally never patronize a place like this. That said, I have a kinda hard time getting wound up about it. How do people around here feel about strip clubs? Because I can imagine one done "right", I suppose, and I guess this is just kinda half that and half coffee joint.

As best I can figure, there will always be at least a general sense of what is "attractive" in our society, and as long as that's the case, there will be people without much chance to encounter attractive people with their social ability (ie, they're not attractive themselves.) At that point, there exists a market, and while I can be something of a socialist myself, I realize that when one group of people wants something and another has it, places like this will exist. I'd simply appreciate if they're operated in the least insulting way possible.

I consider myself a feminist and I'd personally never patronize a place like this. That said, I have a kinda hard time getting wound up about it. How do people around here feel about strip clubs? Because I can imagine one done "right", I suppose, and I guess this is just kinda half that and half coffee joint.

As best I can figure, there will always be at least a general sense of what is "attractive" in our society, and as long as that's the case, there will be people without much chance to encounter attractive people with their social ability (ie, they're not attractive themselves.) At that point, there exists a market, and while I can be something of a socialist myself, I realize that when one group of people wants something and another has it, places like this will exist. I'd simply appreciate if they're operated in the least insulting way possible.

How do people around here feel about strip clubs?

FSM.

In polite conversation, you're not supposed to bring up politics or religion. In Feministing comment threads, you're not supposed to bring up porn, prostitution, sex, or stripping.

I don't see what the problem is. Nobody is forcing them to work there. And what if they like working there, wearing so little clothing? It's the same with porn, (some) prostitution and stripping. Nobody's making them do it, and they may very well enjoy it. This sort of rampant, unreasonable demonization of scantily-cladness is why I don't agree with all of feminism's stereotypical views.

I'm also seeing alot of complaints of men leering at women... Women do it to men, too. Or is that somehow okay while men leering at women isn't? How many of you women would be bitching up a storm if the situation at that coffee shop was the other way around- Hot young men in g-strings? I know I'd leer!

This sort of rampant, unreasonable demonization of scantily-cladness is why I don't agree with all of feminism's stereotypical views.

So... objecting to exploitation makes us "unreasonable"? I can understand wanting to distance yourself from unpopular feminist views for whatever reasons you may have, but characterizing the diverse views of people as to why this sort of thing is problematic, is (at best) overly broad and unfair. Indeed, it's borderline rude.

Alon, I disagree that the subjects of porn, stripping, prostitution, etc. are verboten on feministing. Indeed, we talk about them all the time. I personally find them all problematic -- not inherently, but because they occur against a background of male power and female oppression. Particularly if you look at the budget structure of most of these places -- men deriving the lion's share of profits for doing little more than recruiting attractive women to dance for paying customers -- you see that women are the losers however you toss the coin. I have a problem with that, and I think many others here do as well.

I agree TLF. I would also add that they have effects that go far beyond the interaction there. They result from and contribute to a cultural dynamic in which women are sexual objects, commodified and on display, and men are desiring sexual subjects, who, as the ones with the money, have the agency in the interaction. That attitude toward sexuality permeates our culture, and I think it sucks.

She said eloquently.

I second TLF and EG. As a heterosexual man who enjoys looking at women's bodies (and I reiterate this to show that the problem is not that heterosexual men enjoy looking at women's bodies, or what women have bodies), I obviously have no issue with women not wearing much in and of itself. What I have an issue with is the backdrop of oppression, of domination, of male commodification of sex, of contempt for the employees' health, and so on and so forth.

If a woman working at an ordinary coffee shop wanted to wear minimal clothing because she had an exhibitionistic streak, or thought she got more tips that way, and it wasn't against the dress code, I would have no problem with that. The issue becomes when her body is sold, by the owners, as the product. That is an explicit appeal to male dominance, and it's wrong.

I like to get my jollies as much as the next guy, but not at the expense of a woman's dignity or autonomy.

Cheers,

TH

Oh, and as far as strip clubs go: Not a fan. Never been to one and, God willing, never going to one.

Cheers,

TH

I'm actually very pleased with those responses to my post. I can certainly understand that it's the CONTEXT that can make those situations problematic. I just get very scared at the implications of believing that they're inherently problematic .

I tried writing a breakdown on why I don’t favor the strip club, porn and prostitution subjects but in the end it comes down to the same thing: this statement here:

“Nobody's making them do it, and they may very well enjoy it�

The phrase is called "consenting adults" I believe and it means to agree or approve.

In a society where numerous reports have agreed people think sex education in this country is a failure,
In a society where sexual content is easier to get than a damn bottle of water,
In a society where the porn industry is more booming than the sexual protection industry;

In *this* society I would be really interested in what constitutes a “consenting adult.�

If we can’t teach sex, if we can’t convince each other to protect themselves, and thus, their partners during it, and if we can’t question other’s sexual intentions as to how they affect the world we live in with out being called “demonizers�

then how in this great free world do we expect anyone to make informed decisions about sexual choices?

And, yes, I understand they are *choices*. But let us remember our ability to choose is limited by our ability to know. In my opinion, knowledge about sex is riding the extremist waves: guilt-ridden classroom academia or consequenceless, frivolous commodity.

People deserve better than the lowest common denominators.

If women choose to serve coffee in bras and panties, fine. But you'll have to excuse me for saying "Hold on a second. What's *really* going on here?"

Is this Cowgirls affiliated with the Seattle bar of the same name? Forgive me if that was mentioned before and I missed it, but if the two are related, I can't say I'm surprised - the bar features badly-poured, over-priced drinks (and scantily clad women) so why not expand that business venture to include badly-made, over-priced coffee as well?

Also, I cannot agree enough that it's probably pretty darned unsafe to barista in one's skivvies - almost every one of my friends was a barista at one point, and avoiding getting burned or scalded wasn't always possible.

In Feministing comment threads, you're not supposed to bring up porn, prostitution, sex, or stripping.

If you're male.

There are too many photos with Asians in them (even though there are only two Asian women). One of them looks like she's crosses over from porn to swilling coffee. This establishment is probably a cross between stripclub and coffeehouse. Unfortunately, as others have said, there's money in porn. I mean stripclub-coffeehouses.

Oh, and as far as strip clubs go: Not a fan. Never been to one and, God willing, never going to one.

I used to want to go to one just to analyze it but after reading a lot of blog comments about the sex industry it just depresses me.

If you're male.

No, the person who got flamed by Nerdlet and Lya Kahlo for being a stripper was very female.

Alon, I disagree that the subjects of porn, stripping, prostitution, etc. are verboten on feministing. Indeed, we talk about them all the time.

Yeah, in the same manner people bring up politics in polite company all the time, and with the same results.

Alon... do you see anyone biting off anyone else's head about the topic here? I find your sentiments confusing in the extreme. You seem to think your views are unwelcome -- just because people strongly disagree with you (if this is the source of your apparent discontent), does not mean you can't talk about it. By the same token, there's no reason to expect us to politely shut up like good little girls when we read something we disagree with.

I say, the more discussion of these issues, the better. Let's get it all out in the open.

I bring up porn, prostitution, and stripping all the time, I'm male, and the only people who flame me are the MRA trollers!

Cheers,

TH

You seem to think your views are unwelcome

Oh, I really don't. That's not what I meant when I snarked that bringing those topics up here was like bringing up politics and religion in polite company. What I meant was that those topics always produced spectacular, pointless flamewars.

Ahh, gotcha. My bad then.

No, the person who got flamed by Nerdlet and Lya Kahlo for being a stripper was very female.

For anyone who's reading this and interested in the truth, I never "flamed" anyone "for being a stripper." In fact, if this is about the thread I think it is, I don't think there was a stripper involved at all - maybe a swimsuit model or something like that. Toodles.

No, the person who got flamed by Nerdlet and Lya Kahlo for being a stripper was very female.

It's okay she brought it up and it was probably a good discussion.

I've been working in a cafe for about 5 months now, and have had ideas brewing (no pun intended) about the similarities between the oppression of women and the treatment of employees in service industries. I haven't quite been able to articulate anything yet, as I'm relatively new to this whole feminist thing and haven't quite explored the wide universe of The Issues yet, but the two things that have bothered me most lately:

1) It seems as though most of the people who work in my cafe, and every other one I've ever visited, are women. Are there real statistics on this somewhere? Am I imagining it? Or is cafe work one of those things that is seen as not worthwile because men, for the most part, don't do it?

2) As I was ranting about this issue with a friend of mine tonight, he said that the general business plan for opening a successful coffee stand (not coffee shop, a little drivethrough stand) was to find a place to put it, and then hire a bunch of hot young thangs so that people will come to it. This implies that women are the commodities at places like this, whether or not they're making coffee in their underwear.

I find it hard to believe that anyone on this site ever got flamed for being a stripper. That's not generally how we operate.

Cheers,

TH

Are you sure nobody got flamed? Before I started reading Feministing, I read in Bitch magazine about the founders of $pread Magazine talking about the harsh reaction they got in the Feministing forums after an article about stripping featuring one of them was posted.

"There are too many photos with Asians in them (even though there are only two Asian women). One of them looks like she's crosses over from porn to swilling coffee." Donna Darko

What's up with this? Do you have something against Asian women?

There are only two Asian women but they are generously distributed throughout the photo page. I hear Asian porn is really big (I've never watched an Asian in porn because I don't watch porn) and the photo page capitalized on this.

So how does that make it "too many", and by what basis do you say "One of them looks like she's crosses over from porn to swilling coffee"? It sounds to me like your objection runs a bit deeper than the proportion of Asian employees to their apprearances on the site.

noname, I think donna's concern is that the business is *actively* trying to appeal to the fetishists. Fetishism is inherently dehumanizing, so it says something deeply troubling about the people who run/own this business that they would so cavalierly exploit women, and Asian women in particular, just to make a few bucks.

I think they used her image alot because she looks like a famous porn star. She looks like Mimi Damoyo, the libertarian who recently ran for governor of Nevada. It's exploitative on the establishment's part but also on the part of the porn industry to reinforce the stereotype of Asian women as submissive. I've been fighting this stereotype my whole life.

I've countered the stereotype better than any Asian woman I've ever known because the next time someone thinks of an Asian woman, they'll think of that radical woman of color, post-colonial feminist, Donna Darko!

*cackle cackle!*

Donna and TLF - Fair enough.

TLF - Do you really think this is an issue of fetishism? Many people (including me) think that (many) Asian women are attractive. This, at least for me, is a physical preference having nothing to do with the submissive stereotype. Is that really a fetish? I always thought it was simply an issue of liking certain facial features and body types. I realize this is off topic, I am just curious now as to what constitutes a fetish (which is inherently dehumanizing)?

I got side-tracked in my last post. The point I wanted to make was this: the Asians featured on the site could simply be there because many men find them attractive. It doesn't (I think) have to have anything to do with the submissive stereotype.

noname, of course, there's nothing inherently troubling about having a "type." I think the concern is just that there's some major creepiness associated with a lot of men who prefer Asians. Obviously there's nothing wrong with being attracted to Asian women. But promoting attractive Asian women over attractive white women suggests that there MAY be something more insidious underway. All of those women are attractive, including the Asian women. That the Asian women are singled out SEEMS to tie into the fetishistic appeal of the "submissive Asian woman"/geisha/etc. It's the sort of exponential marginalization problem -- they're marginalized 1) for being women and 2) for being Asian. And then they're additionally marginalized ON TOP of these two, for being, specifically, Asian women. I don't think there's much credibility in the notion that these people are simply "appreciating" female beauty... they're being creepy, and emphasizing the Asian women is likely a calculated -- and creepy -- move.

Fair enough, again. I would be more inclined to agree with you if they had the girls dressed up in some sort of "slutty geisha" Holloween costume (for example), but I certainly can't prove you wrong.

I just hope being attracted to petite women with dark hair doesn’t make me one of the creepy ones. ;)

Donna writes:
I've countered the stereotype better than any Asian woman I've ever known because the next time someone thinks of an Asian woman, they'll think of that radical woman of color, post-colonial feminist, Donna Darko!

But what if I've got a fetish for radical postcolonial feminist women of color? *grin, duck, run!*

I don't think that "types" are necessarily sinister, but I have noticed that white men who are obsessed with, and sexualize, Asian women more than they do other women tend to have, uhm, issues. I'm not sure what the correlation is, unless they buy into the stereotype that Asian women are submissive.

Cheers,

TH

I always kind of thought Asian women were prettier too. I wanted to be one when I grew up.

ceezee, that makes me think of a scene from What Dreams May Come (postmodern Robin Williams flick from a few years back). Robin's character dies and goes to heaven and meets his daughter. He doesn't realize it's her at first, because she's a beautiful Asian woman (his daughter is white). Apparently in heaven you get to choose your appearance, and she chose hers because she and her dad had been on a plane once and he saw a female Asian flight attendant and remarked how beautiful Asian women are. In her childish mind, she assumed he meant that ONLY Asian women were beautiful, and since she died as a child, that's what she ended up looking like in heaven.

Hmmm. How random and interesting that I remembered that. I should watch that movie again.

A lot of people fetishize what they find exotic. I heard that in the Philippines, women used to fetishize (male) American troops.

What's more likely is that after a group is fetishized, people who prize submissiveness then concoct a myth whereby members of that group are submissive. German and Russian women aren't and have never been more submissive than American women, and yet they've been portrayed as such to attract men who already think of them as new and exotic.

TLF--

I remember that movie! It hadn't occured to me until you mention it, but yes, it was sort of something like that.

Also, I think the submissive Asian stereotype may be on its way out. I feel like Lucy Liu may have had something to do with it.

Every race has different looking people so I am suspicious when people like physical traits of a certain race. Someone can like dark hair, light hair, big women or small women but once you impute stereotypical personality traits like fieriness or submissiveness, that's a fetish.

But what if I've got a fetish for radical postcolonial feminist women of color?

I'd say you're too kind and that you're a bottom.

*cackle cackle*

As far as the submissive stereotype being on the way out, all the online porn and stories of prostitution don't help. It's very classist of me to talk like this but I wish women worldwide had more options. Liu comes across as assertive and intelligent in articles but the asskicking stereotype is a variation of the virgin/whore dichotomy. Asians have lotus flower/dragon lady, blacks have the mammy/jezebel and sapphire dichotomies.

"Every race has different looking people so I am suspicious when people like physical traits of a certain race."

True, but in general East Asians have high cheek bones and very flat foreheads; Western Europeans are more robust; Australian Aborigines have prominent brow ridges, etc. I can see why a certain "type" might appeal to someone, and that type might be found more often in a particular race.

And the fact that there are a lot of Asian women pictured might have to do with the fact that there is a very high percentage of Asians in Seattle.

Donna--

Wow. I hadn't even considered the notion of racial dichotomies as well. My mind has officially been blown, and I need to sit and think about this for a while.

Thanks muchly for the enlightenment.

They're all based on patriarchy's false dichotomy of good girls and bad girls. Latinas are either virgins or spitfires. I'm thinking of Eva Longoria on Desperate Housewives who's kind of a spitfire on there. Her maid was Chinese lotus flower who was a cunning dragon lady under the innocent act.

Interesting discussion. I am glad we can agree on the difference between a purely shallow, physical preference and a personality stereotype (submissiveness often equals boring in my book).

I can't imagine why anyone but a narcissist would want a completely emotionally submissive life-partner. It would drive me nuts!

Cheers,

TH

I knew a guy into petite brunettes like Cristina Ricci, Winona Ryder, etc. who are definitely not submissive.

Oh yeah he liked me too.

Laura San Giacomo was another one. Definitely not submissive.

Downright raucous, actually.

Little hellions that's what we are.

Safety issues aside (wrt milk steamers etc.), how is this any different than the use of "pretty young women" being used to sell damn near everything under the sun? Look at the newsreaders on any American 24-hour news show to sort of peg the opposite end of the meter. Do the news channels escape the same sort of outrage simply because they pay better or because the women wear more clothes?

Well, if you go check out the post on Katie Couric a little while back, you'll see some outrage about the way women newscasters are expected to look.

But yes, wearing more clothing matters, because degree matters. Clothing serves a number of social functions, such as indicating status, and the degree to which newcasters are expected to be sex objects is modified by the fact that they get to be fully dressed.

Jeff: I'm a little scared, because I usually post on this site under "jeff" and you said almost exactly what I was going to say. Weird.