I had a fetus for lunch... it was sooooo good.

What I don't get is why (often) the same people who are so opposed to abortion are also so opposed to sex education. Of course, knowing the facts about things like birth control wouldn't stop all unwanted/unintended/dangerous pregnancies, but it sure would stop a lot which would, I imagine, in turn lower the rate of women having abortions. Then again, I'm not sure I actually know anyone who has had an abortion simply based on the grounds of "oops! I got knocked up." Anti-choicers do not realize what a difficult choice abortion is and that 99.9% of all women who abort pregnancies do not take it lightly in any way, shape, or form.

as if they don't get it yet:

-america is NOT a theocracy
-we are NOT all evangelical christians
-and the intelligent, self-secure liberals (did anyone see the psych today article on the psychological differences between conservatives and liberals?) would much much much appreciate not having to live in their load of crap!

ugh, when will they ever open their eyes/minds to the truth?

That Jill Stanek piece reads like something out of The Onion. Is it for real?

The fetus-eater link is bizarre; she says that one of the 3 ways that abortion providers meet their professional demise is "death, alone in their beds, while watching porn flicks after overdosing on heroin." How did this woman get a voice in a national debate?

"We are vigorously promoting parental notification laws, adoption, abstinence education, crisis pregnancy programs, and the vital work of faith-based groups."

So nice to learn about all the administration is doing to help Americans, Georgie! Let me translate that sentence into what it REALLY means:

"We are vigorously promoting laws that treat teen girls as the property of their parents, forcing them to carry unwanted pregnancies to term to benefit rich white people, telling them they're dirty if they even THINK about having sex, lying to them when they do get pregnant (which they probably will, given that we don't teach them about contraception), and forcing our own warped beliefs down their throats at every turn!". Aren't you proud of us???

CHARMING.

If you click on the eating fetuses link and then try to click on the link containing pictures of the "chop shop," surprise surprise, the website can't be found (unless my internet connection isn't working properly, which very well may be the case).

Even so, perhaps the depravity of this particular chop shop would be a nonissue if the government funded clean, up-to-code clinics. Just a thought.

Is anyone else having trouble accessing the "fetus eater" article? I can access other articles of hers but not this one.

"There is something innately in us that tells us as one generation we should give birth to the next." So if you don't want children, you're only lying to yourself."

I've said since I was six years old that I didn't want children. I still don't. So does that mean that, despite the fact that I feel so sure, I've been lying to myself for 17 years? I've had people tell me "You'll change your mind someday", but this is ridiculous! There are plenty of people in this generation who want kids. Let them birth the next! I'm not a brood mare who is obligated to pop out kids for the sake of (over)populating the planet!

Responding to carolina girl's post, not all women see abortion as a difficult, emotional decision. I had one, and it was a relatively simple decision to make. I've had more trouble deciding what to have for dinner. I mean, either you want one, or you don't. I think if you have to struggle with such a decision, you probably aren't 100% sure what you really want. Or maybe you just didn't think about it much beforehand. The decision to have an abortion should I ever get pregnant was one I'd made years and years ago. The only difficulty I had was coming up with the ridiculous amount of money they charge. Talk about taking advantage of people in a shitty situation...

Yes, I'm having a problem as well; the link loads but the page is blank. I'll look into it and let you know if I come up with something...

Re: the fetus-eating story...

I was able to read most of it, but when the story links up to photos of the office, and when I clicked to see the photos, I got an error message (like Sammy pointed out), but after that, I couldn't get back to the article.

Tokiana, I agree with you that it’s not a difficult choice for everyone. I haven’t had an abortion myself but a close friend of mine did and so did my mom (and that in Iran, where abortion is illegal). It wasn’t a really difficult choice for either of them. I also remember it being discussed very matter-of-factly when my mom was pregnant with my sister. Should I become pregnant myself I will have no qualms about terminating it. I too have made that decision a very long time ago.

I think the decision to have an abortion is different for different women. For some, it's a very simple matter. For others, it's much more complicated and I think that as feminists we ought to respect that a decision like this is deeply personal -- its weight and importance to the woman should not be diminished. That's precisely what the fundies want to do. I think we do a disservice to women if we pretend no one goes into it with conflicted emotions, or that you "shouldn't" go into it with conflicted emotions. The important thing is allowing women to make that choice, and ensuring that they have access to all the information they want, as well as compassionate, understanding medical care.

For once I'd like to hear Bush wish social service and non profit workers well because we're the ones helping (many with limited funds I might add) all the abused, disabled, poor children he and his "pro family" cohorts neglect.....you know kids OUTSIDE the womb

Thanks for taking one for the team, Ann. But how you kept your breakfast down is beyond me.

Wow, Ann - nice work. I considered trying to go, but I figure my cover is blown from the "Contraception is Not the Answer" (CINTA) conference last fall (which I wrote a series of posts on at www.rhrealitycheck.org).

Thanks for reporting on this!

***The fetus-eater link is bizarre;***

Here's a link to the testimony provided to the state legislature. It's by the detective who investigated the allegations of "fetus eating" by the abortionist.

http://tinyurl.com/ao6n5

Ann, you said, "Saying that black people and fetuses (and really, embryos) should be considered 'equally human'? Wow."

... as if that's incorrect? What are human fetuses and embryos if not human? You apparently do not consider them equally human? How human are they then? 1/5? 2/5? 3/5?

Those looking for photos of the fetus eater's mill can go here:
www.jillstanek.com/archives/2005/06/more_photos_fro.html

I got my information on the fetus eating abortionist from news articles. A google search of the name Krishna Rajanna will net more information to those interested.

Yes, Jill, and there are white heterosexual Christians who murder and steal and rape. My high school drama teacher was raped and impregnated by her white heterosexual Christian youth group leader when she was fifteen. So does this mean that youth group leaders are bad people? Does this impugn youth ministry as a whole? Or will you admit that picking out extreme examples is a bad strategy for making a coherent argument?

Your silly fetus eater story is sensationalist journalism. All it does is lay bare the fact that you're grasping at straws to make your point. If your argument REQUIRES appeal to the worst case scenario, it's not a very strong argument. Do you honestly think that the mainstream pro-choice movement supports "doctors" who operate in unsanitary conditions? You must be joking. We pro-choicers are just as against that as you are.

If you want to compare black people and fetuses, hey, go for it. Whatever you want to call a fetus, there's disagreement on whether or not it's a human at all (your "3/5" rhetoric is pretty narrow-minded in this respect). At best, it's not human the way you and I are. At most it might be considered human the way that an extremely disabled and severely retarded person is human -- and unable to even SURVIVE without the constant 24/7 aid of another person and/or machines. So, Jill, I think the question is this: do YOU want to be the person comparing black people to retarded invalids? That's the logical extension of your argument.

Ann, by and large, abortionists are slime. Killing preborn babies for a living sets the stage for the types of doctors who will do it. Try tracking them sometime.

There's abortionist, Rodolfo Finkelstein, formerly a MI chop shop operator, still at large - believed to have fled to his native country of Argentina - after being accused by several patients in 2005 of sexual assault. (www.theoaklandpress.com/stories/030905/loc_20050309010.shtml)

Then there's AZ abortionist Dr. Brian Finkel, locked up in prison in 2004 for sexual abuse of patients.
(www.phoenixnewtimes.com/Issues/2006-12-14/news/news.html)

I could go on but will skip to what I believe is the most recent example(hard to keep track), who would be Richard Leigh, accused of defrauding Medicare.
(www.greatfallstribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061230/NEWS01/61230004)

As for the cleanliness of abortion mills, your side has not seen legislation proposing abortion clinic regulations it didn't fight (baby)_tooth and nail. Where I live in IL, abortion clinics are less regulated than hair salons. While an IL podiatrist has to report to the state if s/he's a convicted felon, abortionists are exempted, for example.

Your joust at pro-lifers who compare the US's previous Supreme Court decision that blacks are not completely human and can be considered property to its most recent decision that preborn humans are not completely human and can be considered property - while in the next breath you maintain preborn humans aren't completely human - is so stunningly ironic as to assuredly go down in the annals as a classic example of pro-abort stupidity and blindness.

Funny you should mention IL and abortion/abortionists.clinics, Jill. I had an abortion in my home state of IL, and the clinic (the only one in my area) was very clean, the people were very kind and respectful, and the abortionist was gentle and a friendly guy. I second the sensationalist journalism statement. That's all your story is, is a big, steamy pile of bullshit. I bet that pic is a fake, too. It's amazing what you can do with photoshop and a bit of know-how. I've come across this story before, some years ago. And I bet it's not even real, but a sad attempt to demonize abortion and scare women away from it. You are a truly sickening person, Jill. People like you make me wish to vomit.

I forgot to add that as far as fetuses/embryos being property and not completely human...

It's not completely human yet because it's still a mass of dividing cells. It's not a whole, complete person. It can't even form a thought, for christ sakes. And as long as it resides in my body without my permission, IT IS MY PROPERTY, and I will do with it as I please. I'll not sacrifice myself to be an incubator for something I don't want.

Actually, after viewing the pics... They don't even prove anything. There's absolutely no evidence there whatsoever that the abortionist ate fetuses... By the gods... Are pro-lifers really that desperate?

Tokaia, remain in denial as you wish. The photos were entered as evidence in court, if you'd bother to read.

So your arguments are:

1) Level of development determines humanity

2) Where one resides determines humanity

3) Level of dependence determines humanity

Do have them right?

Maybe your article would be a bit more believable if it wasn't riddled with such emotive and obviously sensational language: typical pond scum abortionist, Rajanna smelled and looked like a bum, The cold blood coursing through Rajanna's veins must have impaired his brain function, etc.

That's not journalism.

As to your understanding of journalism, jray, I didn't write an article, I wrote a column. Columnists write opinions in their discussion of facts, which is what makes what they write columns, not articles.

Hi Ann,
Were you the young woman sitting in the back row to the speaker's left? If so, you were sitting next to my wife (she's under 30 and wasn't attending as a reporter) and me. I was wearing a shirt which said "former fetus" and a brown jacket. If that was you

Were there really that many 50 year-old men? I can remember an older gentleman who was probably in his 60's. There were a couple more men (maybe 3 or 4) probably in their 40's. There were a decent number of middle-aged women. There were some college students from LSU. There were a couple of other men probably in their 20's like myself. There were some other younger women but I'm not sure if they were reporters, bloggers, or people who work for the FRC. Young men (whom I assumed worked for the FRC) were continually walking in and out of the room. I think most of the kids walking around (there were 2 or 3 of them) were children of the FRC's Charmaine Yoest. One might have been the son of Tim from Prolifeblogs.com.

I find your description of the crowd as being inaccurate. It was a fairly diverse crowd in terms of age and gender.

I also don't recall any talks (at least from the speakers) about how the March never receives any coverage. Who said that? A blogger? A specific speaker? There was some talk about how media typically favors the pro-choice side but I never recall hearing anything like what you've claimed.

Ann, by and large, abortionists are slime. Killing preborn babies for a living sets the stage for the types of doctors who will do it. Try tracking them sometime.

To be clear, I'm not Ann. Don't get me wrong, Ann is awesome, but I don't wanna put words in her mouth.

Ok Jill, then here we go.

By and large, youth pastors are slime. I've met some creepy youth pastors in my day. I mean, seriously, what's up with grown adults (usually single) wanting to hang out with teenagers all the time? Man, talk about creepy. The dude who raped my drama teacher was just one of many such creeptastic scumbags. We should free the poor pre-adult population from the cruel auspices of these child predators before it is too late. It is time we stopped treating teenagers like property and let them run their own lives!!

Who's with me?

LF:
I concur, and I further propose that we should also get rid of all Catholic priests*, as there are numerous examples of Catholic priests molesting and sodomizing altar boys.

*Brought to you by the "one abortion doctor allegedly ate fetuses, therefore ALL are EVIL" school of logic.

Vervain, you're so right. Catholic priesthood should be outlawed.*

* this public service announcement brought to you by the Episcopal church. Our priests can have sex!

;)

I'll see your Catholic priests, and I'll raise you ten-year-olds. Remember those two ten-year-olds who murdered the younger child some years ago in England? Clearly all ten-year-olds should be banned.

Jill, I see no reason to consider an embryo any more human than any other clump of human cells. Its rights and interests do not outweigh mine. I do consider you human. And yet, if you needed to be hooked up to my body and my circulatory, respiratory, digestive, and reproductive systems, taking over my ability to live my life and to take the medications I need to get by, I would refuse to do it, even if it meant the end of your life. Because it's my body.

The embryo doesn't just happen to be an a womb somewhere. The entire process of pregnancy and childbirth is, if not consensual, an appropriation of a woman's body, and not to be tolerated.

So, EG, you and I agree that abortion is acceptable to save the life of the mother, if that were ever necessary, which it is not.

What about the 90+% of abortions that are for convenience only, secondary birth control?

And I'll ask the same question to you I asked Tokaia, which she hasn't answered: Are you saying level of development determines humanity?

What about the 90+% of abortions that are for convenience only, secondary birth control?

Where do you get this statistic, Jill? What are you counting as "convenience"?

How about severe post partum depression? We're talking Andrea Yates level here. If a mom almost killed her last baby, should she be popping out more of them? She won't die, but her kids might, and at her own hand at that.

Or how about abject poverty? If she foots the bill for another kid, her three other kids will have less food to eat. She won't be able to afford new shoes for her youngest. She won't be able to afford a jacket for her oldest, who's outgrown her old one -- and the winters are cold where she lives.

What about domestic abuse? She reported him last time he beat her and her son up, but there was insufficient evidence to charge him with anything that could keep him behind bars. If she has another baby he'll probably beat that one too. If he finds out she's pregnant he might beat her. While she's stuck up in the hospital giving birth he might beat up -- hell, even kill -- her son.

Oh, but silly me -- these women should just suck it up and put up with their "inconveniences," the selfish little whores.

Read my comment, Jill. Neither an embryo nor a fetus nor a full-grown adult has a right to appropriate my body against my will, no matter what my reason is.

And, abortion is never necessary to save the life of the woman? Have you never heard of ectopic pregnancy? Pre-eclampsia? Placenta previa? Right. Those conditions don't exist, but baby-eating doctors? That's true.

"Are you saying level of development determines humanity?"

Yes, I am. I'll go on record as saying that. Clumps of cells with no ability to live outside my body aren't entitled to the human rights that I am.

Hey, TLF, I love how not wanting to have my entire life turned upside down and my body painfully transformed is dismissed as "convenience."

Chinese take-out is convenient. Cell phones are convenient. The internet is convenient.

Abortions are vital.

Level of development determines humanity

No, level of development determines personhood. Being human means having homo sapiens DNA. Being a person means having the neural capacity for self-awareness.

Let me apologize in advance for the incredibly long post...

I really don’t understand pro-lifers like you, Ms. Stanek – and I say this as someone who considers abortion to be a truly tragic occurrence. You throw around ridiculous stories, distorted facts and figures, and hateful language that does nothing to help the children you claim to care so much about.

Like you, I hate abortion. I remember seeing my own children on the ultrasound screen – and there is no way I could ever consider what I saw anything less that a precious human being deserving of life. It saddens me to think of the 1.3 million lives that come to a very early end each year.

At the same time, I don’t see where criminalizing abortion will do very much to prevent another 1.3 million deaths next year. If Roe v. Wade was overturned tomorrow, what would really change? Sure some women would continue their pregnancies and give birth. But we all know that most of those pregnancies would still end in abortion – it would just be an illegal one. The only thing that would be different is that those pregnant women would likely be exploited financially and emotionally. Some women will probably be maimed or killed in the process, and their unborn children will die anyway. All that pain and suffering, but so few lives saved. How does it seem worth it?

Why not focus your energies (and by "your" I mean the entire pro-life movement) on programs and policies that will actually save lives? I suggest the following:

- Age-appropriate comprehensive sex ed in all public schools
- Condom availability programs in public high schools
- An ongoing nation-wide campaign promoting birth control use
- Increased access to all methods of birth control – especially Plan B
- Increased funding for the development of more effective birth control methods
- A major increase in the financial and emotional support for pregnant women and low-income parents
- Quality, income-based subsidized childcare for all children
- Federally protected parental leave and other pro-family protections
- Tax breaks for companies that institute family-friendly policies

We could prevent so many unplanned pregnancies by instituting these policies, we could ease the financial burden of bringing an unexpected pregnancy to term, which means we could drastically reduce the number of abortions. And isn’t that the goal?

My experience has been that it isn't, manda. Every time I bring up these issues to someone on the other side of the debate, they make a loud and boorish comment about women needing to keep their legs closed and then pick up right where they left off.

There are people who honestly do oppose abortion and want to reduce the number of cases where it becomes the best option, but they are not generally the talking heads of the movement. They are generally the folks who start volunteering in the movement, get disgusted by it, and move on to other things while still retaining their moral objection to abortion.

Cheers,

TH

Count me as part of that group, Tom.

I got really frustrated with the demonization pro-choicers and the lack of real support for women who had or might have abortions. The solutions that most of the vocal pro-life community support just don't seem realistic or compassionate to me. Within about a year it became apparent that my beliefs didn't really fit with any major pro-life organization.

"There is something innately in us that tells us as one generation we should give birth to the next"?!

So, a list of the most defective people in the world:
Mother Teresa
Jesus (assuming orthodox Christianity is correct)
The Buddha
Every Dalai Lama
Most Popes
Most Catholic nuns, monks and priests
Amelia Earhart
Helen Keller
George Washington
Frida Kahlo
Kant
Joan of Arc
Susan B. Anthony
Florence Nightingale
Ella Fitzgerald
George Clooney
Dr. Seuss
Dorothy Parker
David Letterman
.
.
.

Sheesh.

(Most of the people on the list were found on Suite 101)

manda writes:
Count me as part of that group, Tom.

Thanks for this. I think most Mississippians--most of my family, most of my childhood friends--fall into that category. They're basically religious people and think of fetuses as full human beings, of abortion as being a kind of manslaughter, but if they get at all involved in "pro-life" activism, they scratch the surface, get disgusted, and back away slowly.

These folks make up the silent majority of the "moral majority," and can be turned against the extreme right in cases where the difference is made especially clear.

What we really need to do is make the pro-choice argument so compelling that it overrides the emotional appeal of the "pro-life" argument. It's going to be hard, but I think it's more or less inevitable. The battle against the pro-choice position, like the battle against gay rights, is ultimately a battle against moral progress, against the modern world. Over time, the modern world will win out.

Cheers,

TH

See, if you ask Abraham Lincoln, one of the problems with America is that we treat Negroes as second-class citizens, much like Americans were treated in the pre-Declaration of Independence era. Does this seem more than a little insulting to anyone else? Saying that Americans and Negroes (and really, slaves) should be considered "equally human"? Wow.

I have no idea why I looked into the arbotion-eating article... Though totally preposterous, it has ruined my lentil lunch.

Wow. Stanek showed up to the party!

A few points:

1) A Google search that reveals only pages and pages of "news" posted on anti-choice stites does not bolster your argument.

2) Compare the percentage of abortion providers who commit criminal acts with the percentage of any other type of medical profession who commits criminal acts. I think you'll find that dentists are "slime" more often than abortion providers.

3) World Net Daily is little more than Weekly World News for right-wing nut job set. WND is well-known for allowing "columnists" and "journalists" say whatever they please as long as it is both ultraconservative and bolsters the lies WND wants to see people believe.

4) The veracity of a piece of evidence is not determined by its introduction into evidence, nor its presentation at court.

Now that we've cleared up these very basic items that really should have gone without saying, good luck trying to get sane, intelligent people to take you seriously. I can't imagine why anyone would waste the time, unless it was in a sideshow sort of situation.