This is different from games like Grand Theft Auto (in which players can rape sex workers)

You can't rape sex workers in the game, only kill them (to get your money back).

Noted, tRJ. Thanks.

You can't rape sex workers in the game, only kill them (to get your money back).

An important distinction, obviously.

[/sarcasm]

I play Second Life so I thought I might clarify a few points for anyone who has never played before.

You see those little red and blue dots, or balls under the signs? Those are items that you can purchase for the 220 "Lindens" (game dollars)Once you own the little balls, you can take them with you and place them somewhere in the game. At that point you can click them and choose to engage in the activity that they represent. Not only the "rapist" but the "victim" as well would HAVE to voluntarily click on the balls and choose to engage, and would be able to STOP the activity just as easily. It is total free choice.

I have never seen this particular area or these items before in the game, but that is how the animation "balls" work.

I also wanted to point out that the signs do say "roleplay rape"

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there is nothing at all disturning about this. I guess my concern is that its a slippery slope to judge people's fantasies or roleplays that they CHOOSE to engage in.

As for Grand Theft Auto, that disturbs me WAY more than this. You can rob the prostitute, then kill her. And its not a willing "victim" who is getting off on it on the other end...It's a nameless, faceless, non entity who you rape and kill for the fun of it, and the money. Now THAT'S scary.

tRJ, looks like this is iffy.

You can BUY a rape? WTF?

Has anyone who's played this game know how graphic it [the rape] is? I cannot for the life of me think of anyone who'd actually want to put in such a thing but then I realize what kind of world we live in. *sigh*

UltraMagnus, I haven't seen it in game but I can log in and see if I can find it and take screen caps if anyone is interested. My guess is it's just a typical sex animation (there are tons of those) that has been titled rape as a sort of twisted marketing ploy.... But I could be wrong.

Ugh. That RapeLay thing was sooooooo disgusting! Why do men hate us?

at least the comments (and even the article) about the rapelay thing were all people disgusted by it.

cept for the one guy who insisted that it was women who were more into rape fantasys than men...until like 3 people called him out on it (and pretty well i must add)

I am both a major fan of the Feministing mission and the CEO of the largest company that creates content within Second Life. I would like to clarify a couple points, because I think that there will be a tremendous need for active participation on issues surrounding Second Life by the Feministing community in the months and years ahead.

In understanding this situation with Second Life content, it is very important to understand that Second Life is not a game. It is a technology platform on which anyone can create content. In that way, it is more similar to the Web than to Grand Theft Auto. Linden Lab, the company that created the Second Life, is not even the owner of the intellectual property created in Second Life. Therefore in some ways they are no more responsible for any objectionable but non-criminal content than an ISP is on the Internet for the content on someone's Web site that they host or that travels through their pipes.

Second Life, or something like it, will grow into a global platform like the Web that is a new communication medium. As such, you will see the full range of human behaviors exhibited within it. The most troubling aspect is the increased anonynimity of the medium and a lower culpability for one's actions. While it is true that the content cited above is not fully "rape" in that it can only be entered into voluntarily by both participants, it is clearly still promoting the idea of rape, which is a major concern. Concerns about stalking on MySpace were, in my opinion, overblown, but within open ended virtual worlds those may become a far greater problem.

I will not go on at greater length here, but the beginning of completely virtual parts of our global society will bring with it tremendous benefit for cultural and economic change via grass roots mechanisms around the world, but also very serious ethical concerns, like that of the marketing of rape via the content cited above.

The use of virtual worlds is showing the exponential growth curve of the early Web, and I think we will see this as the next major global communications medium growing to prominence over the next 3-5 years. It therefore is critical that we all work to understand this medium as it evolves and how it is quite distinct from the Web, video games, television, and other media. There will be both considerable opportunity and challenges relating to feminist issues in particular as this plays out, and we will all be better off being ahead of the curve and attempting to influence its early development while we can still more easily weild a more powerful lever that comes with the exponential growth rate.

Ultra Magnus,

as i understand it the entire point of Second life is that it provides a digital sandbox for its players. There is a huge amount of freedom in that the players themselves can create nearly anything in the game world. The game gives players access to some pretty serious programming tools in order to allow them to create just about anything. I've seen blackholes created in game, vehicles etc. You can do just about anything.

So it's not necessarily the developers that implemented the "rape" button, but gamers.

Also, as Ayla pointed out, this is entirely consensual rape fantasy roleplaying. It's more likely that the players put the rape contracts out on themselves . IF they don't want the rape to occur, they don't consent to it. Also, its very likely that the rape animation is just the usual sex animation. This is probably best described as "suprise" sex, rather than rape.

Goddamnit, of course the most knowledgeable person possible on the issue would post while I was writing my vaguely informative post below.

I think a major issue here are the ramifications into reality, i.e. where we live. Rape victims, as discussed yesterday, already have a fair amount of problems with the justice system and being "blamed" for the rape. The most disturbing thing to me is that this "consensual" rape isn't rape. Call it what it is a fantasy, rough sex. That's not rape, and there is a difference. Rape is NOT consensual, and I think that many times this distinction isn't made.

elektrodot- I really didn't see anyone "calling" him on it all that well. I'm really not sure what to think about that game. Surely there are far worse crimes committed by players in the video game world. I'm an avid gamer, how many people have I slaughtered digitally I wonder?
Certainly the pretense of the game is disturbing. You rape and rerape and rerape girls until they become willing sex slaves. Disgusting. My knee jerk reaction is to detest it. However there are plenty of perfectly normal men and women with rape fantasies. (I call it a rape fantasy because the fantasy is all about acting out something that emulates rape through consensual role play)This allows people to live out that fantasy in an argueably harmless way. I've often argued against people that believe that violent video games influence people to become violent. The science simply isn't there to show that it does have any lasting effect on people. How then can I say that a rape video game is wrong?

I'm not sure if that came out exactly as i intended, i guess I need to think about what I'm trying to say a little bit more.

jrav, I agree completely. This just seems to reinforce the lie that rape victims are "asking for it". This is horribly irresponsible!

It's like rape porn, I think - people find it titilliating because they think it's just sex only with more dare and passion, whereas it's really just a serious violent crime that take a sexual form.

Something that I've wondered about, specifically in response to criticism of GTA, is whether games like these don't serve as a harmless outlet for bad behavior. In that game, as well as others through the years, I've ruthlessly slaughtered thousands. If I have a really aggravating day, I still like to play a little Counter Strike just so I can murder terrorists. It's a good way to vent.

Maybe this would serve a similar purpose? I don't know. I don't have rape fantasies myself, so I find it hard to imagine the desire to participate in a digital simulation. But maybe this would satisfy, for the right person, the violent fantasy, and prevent the real thing.

In the end, I do wonder, like coasttocoast, about the effects. I could say that I don't have the drive to murder because I do it in virtual form. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that, without a digital outlet, I would be a murderer in the real world.

Just some free-flowing reflections.

I definitely think your right Alon, and I am going to try to tease it out further.
When a woman has a rape fantasy, she is mentally giving up control, yet she is still controlling the action that is happening in the fantasy. With real rape, the woman has no control over the situation, which is terrifying.
In BDSM situations with a good dominant or Master or whatever, the dominant is constantly checking and rechecking for cues that the sub is having a good time, thereby the sub is giving up control, yet still controlling the situation. Of course not all dominants are careful.
However, my question is why is it a rape button? It seems to mean a little more than if it were a "sex" button or even a "rough sex" button.

tabitha- the difference between what seems to be happening here and just virtual sex is
1) suprise, i'm assuming that once it's advertised that a character wants to be "raped", the "contract" can be fulfilled at any time, thus more realisticly simulating a rape.

2) this suprise

"Whereas I would agree that it is a popular fantasy for some females to be dominated by a lover, such activities are done within a safe, secure environment between two consenting adults. Yes, the illusion is sometimes sought over, but where we seem to be going wrong is by incorrectly labelling it as anything but that: an illusion.

Rapelay does not present a theatric encounter between two people that can be aborted if things get a little over the top; it presents you with the chance to physically attack unwilling women and force yourself upon them."

coasttocoast:
thats not calling him out? uhhh ok

Are tRJ and CoasttoCoast the same troll...oops, I mean "person"? Because while your comments sound more highbrow than the average troll, your intent is betrayed by your consistently "I'm curious please enlighten me, as I'm new to feminist blogs / just trying to understand", wide-eyed pretense of "oh gosh, I agree that is awful, but here's a logical rationale for it, and I guess it's not really a gendered issue, after all". Rape is gendered violence (although I'm sure you'll cite some exceptions to "disprove" this). Is it therefore so surprising that commentors here would therefore focus on rape portrayed in virtual reality / gaming, rather than, say, murder? Also, as others have already amply pointed out, comparing any kind of "consensual" rape fantasy or role-play to actual rape is apples and oranges. Rape is non-consensual, and any portrayal of it (even through mere use of the term) that blurs this reality DOES do harm. Maybe it doesn't create rapists, as you seem to argue in your parallel logic about not killing anyone in real life, but it does confuse the issue of what rape IS and it does perpetuate VERY longstanding, and damaging theories that women have secret, unconscious desires to be overpowered, abused, and objectified, which contribute to difficulties prosecuting rape and sexual assault. Maybe some of your gaming time should be allocated to READING, which might afford more insight.

coasttocoast said

"tabitha- the difference between what seems to be happening here and just virtual sex is
1) suprise, i'm assuming that once it's advertised that a character wants to be "raped", the "contract" can be fulfilled at any time, thus more realisticly simulating a rape."

for what it's worth, Ive been playing Second Life for a while, and unless there is something BIG that I don't know about yet, the scenario you describe isn't possible in the game.

I went and explored a bit and found other animation balls for roleplay force scenarios (although I wasn't able to find the exact location in that picture), and, as I suspected, they function exactly like other animation balls for things such as fishing, dancing, skating, etc.

Both players have to be in the same place, at the same time, and click the corrosponding anim. ball. You cannot surprse someone who asked for a "rape" by "fullfilling a contract" at some surprise time. There is no way for it to happen unless both parties are aware, present, and active at the time that the roleplay takes place

I recently signed up for Second Life -- I think it's totally fascinating. It's kind of like The Sims meets World of Warcraft, and you can make real money to boot.

I have to confess some cynical curiosity here... I haven't been able to find an actual link to where this picture came from. Just blog to blog to blog, not sure where it started. This sort of thing, though, even if it were just created by an individual player (which I think almost certainly would have to be the case; I can't imagine Second Life/Linden doing this itself), I think might violate SL's Community Standards. I imagine the CEO who posted here knows better than I?

The Community Standards are a huge part of what attracted me to Second Life over other similar simulators and online games. I highly recommend you guys check them out... if only our real-life communities were only half so sensible.

I agree that SL would be a great place for Feministing to be involved. One of my former law professors recently delivered a talk "inside" the SL matrix. For Feministing and feminists to build a presence in SL could only be a net positive.

My mistake Ayla, i'd only done some light reading on how second life worked, and assumed you could carry "animation balls" with you.

Charity- I'm really just trying to think critically about the issue. I spend far more time reading than is healthy, although my bookshelf is admitedly lacking in feminist theory.

Of course rape fantasy and actual rape are as different as night and day, but "rape fantasy" is the term used to describe the act by the majority of people so I guess that's the term that I'll use. If there's another term that's more appropriate for the act of roleplaying rape, I'll use that just as happily.
Of course the commenters will talk about rape rather than murder. I'm exploring why I had a knee jerk reaction of thinking that this game is disgusting when I've committed countless other atrocities in games without the same feelings of guilt.
Why can't we apply the same "any portrayl of a harmfull act is harmfull" line of thinking to other harmfull acts?

Coasttocaost, you *can* carry the anim. balls with you, but in order to use them, you have to put them down, the other player has to be there, and they have to click the ball. You can't click it for them or force the animations on them in any way that I am aware of.

I'm not sure how much any of this has to do with the real topic here, but I just want to be clear in the information I've given as I know it from playing the game.

Are tRJ and CoasttoCoast the same troll...oops, I mean "person"?

No.

...your intent is betrayed by your consistently "I'm curious please enlighten me, as I'm new to feminist blogs / just trying to understand", wide-eyed pretense of "oh gosh, I agree that is awful, but here's a logical rationale for it, and I guess it's not really a gendered issue, after all".

Any time I participate in a discussion here, I am genuinely trying to offer perspectives. Sometimes I agree with you, sometimes I do not. But I thought the point of the comments was to have discussions about the posts. Sometimes that means people are going to disagree with you. If what you want is an echo-chamber, I won't comment.

And the "I'm curious" attitude is genuine. My wife is aggressively and actively anti-feminist, so I really do enjoy learning about the perspective of avowed young feminists.

Maybe some of your gaming time should be allocated to READING, which might afford more insight.

I do find it discouraging that this kind of personal attack is so common here. While I often disagree with your agenda, I try to be respectful of your opinions. To suggest that I don't get it because I don't educate myself is insulting and unfair.

"Why can't we apply the same "any portrayl of a harmfull act is harmfull" line of thinking to other harmfull acts?"

well first off, you dont hear too many people saying "oh he was asking to be mugged/murdered, what with carrying a wallet and walking around at night and all"
sexism is so ingrained in people minds that rape IS a different context than other forms of violence, and this being a feminist website, is what we talk about.

Ayla- ah, the scenario I had in my head is possible then, I think you just misunderstood me. Somone posts that they want to engage in surprise rough sex.

They then go about doing their thing, some time later, out of the blue, someone(or some-ones, buy the look of the posters) approaches with a rough sex animation ball, and the animation is agreed upon by both players, then is acted out.

This is very similar to real life abduction/"rape" fantasies where both parties discuss and agree to the actions before hand, but the "victem" is still somewhat unaware of exactly when the fantasy will begin, which is part of the fantasy.

TRJ -

Your wife is "agressively" anti-feminist? so she

a) doesn't vote
b) doesn't work outside of the home and
c)never uses or used contraception.

if any of these things do not apply to your wife, then I would wonder about her self-imposed label.

elektrodot-well first off, you dont hear too many people saying "oh he was asking to be mugged/murdered, what with carrying a wallet and walking around at night and all"

Actually, this is all too common. I wouldn't walk through a known rough neighbourhood at night with a pair of unmistakeable ipod white headphones on, that is a "mug me" sign. This isn't news. Many people advocate replacing those headphones immediately because they are unmistakeable, and people are mugged for having them on. I wouldn't walk into certain areas of town wearing the wrong gang colours. People have been beaten/killed for that. I wouldn't mouth off to a huge angry looking person in a seedy bar.

I'm probably going to be accused of "blaming the victem" for this post, but i'm not. I'm countering your point that no one ever says anyone was asking to be mugged or beaten. They do.

...and all that is still diffrent from rape.

man go read a book on it or something. geez

elek

are you daft? I never compared it to rape. You did.

With real rape, the woman has no control over the situation, which is terrifying.

It's even bigger than that. A sub knows his master loves him and cares about him, and won't ever mutilate him or do anything risky to him. With rape, that never exists.

It's one thing to get into a brawl with a friend. It's another for that friend to keep beating you no matter how much it hurts.

I wouldn't walk through a known rough neighbourhood at night with a pair of unmistakeable ipod white headphones on, that is a "mug me" sign.

Coast, I made this exact same argument a few weeks ago in another post about rape. The responses amounted to "for that analogy to make sense, we could never leave the house, because every man is a potential rapist." So, you know, that's where that's headed.

Your wife is "agressively" anti-feminist? so she a) doesn't vote b) doesn't work outside of the home and c)never uses or used contraception. if any of these things do not apply to your wife, then I would wonder about her self-imposed label.

Ok, you got me. She is anti-modern-feminism (or whatever you call what it is you do).

Do you want me to explain why the "every man is a potential rapist" argument is bunk now, or should I wait until someone brings it up seriously?

trj -um I guess I call it equality for all, but we won't go there.

Please do explain Alon, it is Friday afternoon and I need a break with something new to chew on.

Between 20 and 30 percent of rapes in the US are committed by strangers, which already cuts your lifetime chance of getting raped by a stranger to barely 1%. Once you account for the fact that stranger rapes tend to occur in the same circumstances as assault and robbery - i.e. typically in high-crime neighborhoods - your lifetime chance drops even more, unless you live in a place like the South Bronx.

Rape and murder are both typically committed by acquaintances: family members, friends, coworkers. You can count on not being raped or murdered if you just go out for a walk, especially if you stay out of bad neighborhoods.

Coast, the fact that you take precautions to protect yourself has NOTHING to do with the stigma attached to having those precautions fail (or not having taken them).

Let me show you what muggings would look like, if they were even REMOTELY comparable to rape.

Let's say for some unavoidable reason you're walking through one of these "rough" neighborhoods and you get mugged. The mugger pistol-whipped and beat you pretty badly so you head straight to the hospital. When you get to the hospital, you explain that you've been mugged and ask for stitches.

The ER and the doctor comes in and examines you. He refuses to give you any medical treatment until you submit to a rectal exam because in a recent spate of muggings in the area, the mugger has used an airborne toxin on victims that causes rectal bleeding, but they need to test for it within 24 hours in order to determine if it's the same toxin, and the only way to do this is by a rectal exam. You panic a little and call a friend for emotional support. Your friend, who is strongly conservative and is constantly chiding you for taking unnecessary risks (though in your mind you're just an everyday average person, you're not overly cautious or overly risky, sometimes you take risks, sometimes you opt for extra safety), is unsympathetic. "I TOLD you you shouldn't have been walking in bad neighborhoods. Really, you were just asking for this to happen."

Later, you call your credit card company to cancel your cards, only to find out the mugger has already maxed them out. Your credit card company, also unsympathetic, determines you were insufficiently vigilant and holds you responsible for the charges. Your wife leaves you because she "just can't look at you" now that you've racked up all this debt to your name. You end up filing for bankruptcy, and as you trudge into your lawyer's office, you're bombarded with anti-bankruptcy picketers who scream horrible names at you for being so greedy and adding to America's overly high debt load.

You seek sympathy from your friends, but only find it with a few of them. Several of them think the mugging was your fault, or that you should have been more careful. A few even suggest that you made up the mugging after lending money to someone who couldn't pay you back. They go so far as to take HIS side. They don't hang out with you anymore because they think you're a liar, and don't want you accusing any of them of mugging you. They figure best to play it safe and not associate with you anymore.

Eventually the police track down your mugger and you're asked to testify at trial. You don't relish the thought, given the horrific nightmares you have every night about the incident. Still, you want the bastard to pay for what he's done to you, so you put on your bravest face possible and walk into the courtroom, ready to relay the grisly, horrific details of how he mugged and brutally beat you. You get into the courtroom and the defense attorney is even meaner than the mugger. You look over at the mugger. He seems unperturbed. He's just sitting there, wearing a fancy suit and there's even a hint of a smile on his face. You feel the sudden urge to vomit when you think about how he's ruined your life, he's turned your family and friends against you, he's forced you into bankruptcy, and he sits there looking as though all is right and fine with the world. The defense attorney twists your words, accuses you of even more horrible things than your former friends did, and eventually you can't help it. You break down and begin sobbing. You're escorted from the courtroom. Later on, the prosecutor thanks you for testifying but tells you that, unfortunately, the jury did not find your testimony convincing enough, and the mugger has gone free.

Your life has been shattered, and the bastard who did it got off scot-free. And you get to live with the shame of being called liar and a cheat. You have to live with a cloud of bankruptcy over your head for the next decade, maybe longer. Your life will never be the same, and the only one anyone will ever blame for this is you.

When your average, run-of-the-mill mugging begins to resemble this, then I'll grant that it might be comparable to rape.

Coasttocoast, yes, I did misunderstand, that scenario is possible. I'm not sure if the surprise element comes in to play a lot in Second Life or not. The anim. balls that I saw were owned by people who own land, and leave the anim. balls there for others to use if they wish. As such, they aren't able to be carried away by someone who doesn't own them. For people who buy their own anim. balls, perhaps the element of surprise is a factor.

oh, TLF, your awesome.

But of course, there are women who do live in the south bronx or any other ghetto because they are poor, and so they risk their lives by going to a job that pays a shitty wage, etc. My sister is a social worker that helps women find affordable housing and she was appalled by the stories she was told. That said, I am not sure how many women think there is a potential rapist in every man, as many women can testify to a father or brother or boyfriend or a husband that would never, ever entertain that thought. But none of this really has to do with the thread at hand, I just don't want to work anymore today.

Fortunately, an American woman is almost 1/13 as likely to be raped as she is to be assaulted...

I can't find any conviction rates postdating 1995, so I can't tell if rapists really are less likely to be convicted than robbers and assaulters.

It's standard practice in BDSM to use safewords, too--e.g. the two partners pick a word in advance, like "asparagus" or something, and then if it becomes too much for the sub, s/he can say it and it's all off. This is done, I guess, because "no" is established in advance as part of the roleplaying ("Please, Nurse Fonkenschtein, not the nipples!"), or is likely to be an instinctive reaction to getting whipped with a spiked leather paddle or whatever.

Don't ask me how I, a simple Mississippi virgin, know this stuff. Let's just say that I've had a very diverse group of friends over the years. Personally, I don't "get" BDSM roleplaying, but then there are a lot of things I don't "get."

As far as the answer to the potential rapist goes: I find the whole concept weird. I mean, what if I posted a message saying that I see all these people carrying thick wallets and big purses around, just whipping out money everywhere they go, and how can I keep myself from mugging them? (Because obviously if they're carrying that much money, they WANT to be mugged, right?)

It's kind of like that international men's group that celebrated a "don't rape women" day, as if anyone who belonged to the group would be saying "Tuesday, Wednesday... Well, I guess I can skip Thursday--it's for a good cause..." I mean, Tom Head will never rape a woman. Ever. Period. I don't have to ask "how not to"; it isn't something a guy does by accident. There is this weird idea in the larger culture that men can't control their sexual behavior, but that's an old lie; men can and do. And when they control their sexual behavior and choose to rape women or molest children, there is much more to it than "giving in to their passions," as if it's a dessert buffet and they shouldn't eat those extra crepes. Rapists are violent criminals. Period. "How can I prevent myself from raping a woman?" makes about as much sense as "How can I prevent myself from strangling and dismembering prostitutes in my van?" I mean, you just DON'T, and if you're really obsessed with rape or murder (or obsessed with the idea of sticking your hand in a garbage disposal or putting a small pet in the microwave or...), then it's time to see a shrink.

Cheers,

TH

And TLF, I think this is probably clear from the context, but I do want to make it explicit here that I'm not saying rape and mugging are in any way comparable in terms of their effects. I know they're not. I just used mugging as an example of a crime that people don't usually say "Oh, he was just giving in to his passions, and the victim was asking for it" about, to point out how much of a friggin' fluffy embroidered pillow we give rapists that we don't seem to give other violent offenders. You know my philosophy well enough by now to know this, I'm sure, but I just wanted to clarify...

Cheers,

TH

Gosh, Thanks TH, I was beginning to wonder. Comments posted by some of the males here make me wonder why men go on feminist websites just to argue in order to diminish women's outrage over rape. Why oh Why? Pretty soon they'll be coming up with some "statistics" to "prove" that rape isn't that frequent and women that have been raped really do have something a little different (meaning wrong) about them. Just about every female I know has been raped. Stranger rape does NOT just happen in bad neighborhoods. Women are kidnapped from parking lots, perps purposely go to good neighborhoods to assault, etc. Rape IS devastating. It IS an epidemic.
Second Life-- "Rape" fantasies are not innocuous. In and of themselves, they have consequences, so promoting them is costly to women's lives. I'm not criticizing anyone, just pointing out that "rape" fantasies exist because rape exists and it is internalized oppression. Anyway, thanks again, TH.

While statistics are helpful and necessary, there are always the cases, as any drinker or former drinker can attest to (Hello Milwaukee!) the existance of the dude that zeros in on the drunkest (or passed out) woman at a bar or a party and rapes or attempts to rape her. Of course, not all men do this (I have many male friends that have watched on as I got wasted and made sure I got home okay, and many men do not find the scent of vomit a turn on). And that woman, the next day, could be so ashamed or embarrassed or not remember the details that she doesn't go to the police. And please, any trolls that will go on about "personal responsibility" can can it, because the act of a man zeroing on on the most vunerable female at a bar or party is preditorial

TH, of course :) Context absolutely clear. And to clarify MY comment, I'm not saying it can never be useful to compare the two; I was addressing the discussion, a bit earlier that began along the lines of, "if we're going to say, don't simulate something harmful, we should include ALL harms, like mugging and murder." I was just reminding/explaining how rape is in fact EXTREMELY different from crimes like mugging, for purposes of worrying about the harm it causes.

tRJ - The insinuation that it's "insulting" to suggest someone "educate" themselves by doing some reading is pretty strange. You're admittedly curious...so why is it wrong to tell you to do some reading? You act like the posters here are the originators of feminist theory or women's studies, and are responsible for countering every one of your whims. There is a vast literature out there, and I don't think it's disrespectful at all to suggest you check it out.

And ditto brightapplsword. It's interesting that some folks have as much free time and entitlement and/or rage, and so little insight, as to come to sites like this to bait and argue with people who quite legitimately take issue with certain cultural practices. They may believe they are doing us all a service by presenting "the other side" and fostering "healthy debate," when in fact they are saying nothing new...just parroting the dominant discourse, of which we are well aware. God forbid we have any refuge from that. Cheers!

I might be repeating other comments here cuz I got tired of reading half way through. If that’s the case I apologize. But, I have a question for people like CaostoCoast and tRJ,

If someone created a game in which the players can score by virtually lynching blacks. Would any of you defend it by saying that it doesn’t actually cause little white racist boys to go out and start lynching blacks and it’s only a harmless outlet for bad behavior. Because I think you wouldn’t say such a thing. How about virtually hanging homosexuals? How about virtual gas chambers? Then how is virtual rape different? Unless you think that rape is sex rather than a crime of hate.

brightappl, thanks for this. It really, really creeps me out when men minimize what rape is, or (and it's usually "pro-feminist" men who do this) present it as something that men have to "stop themselves" from doing through reeducation or whatever. Rapists are predators, not victims. Rape victims are victims, not predators. The answer is not "somewhere in between"; it's cut and dried. If you rape a woman, it is a decision you made to violently assert your sexual dominance over somebody at the expense of her physical and emotional well-being. That isn't a complicated scenario. All rapists are at least conditional sociopaths. It is not a "mistake." It is a violent act that some men choose to commit.

And tabitha, agreed re: targeting women who are obviously intoxicated past the point of anything resembling consent. I don't understand how any man can do this and not be called a rapist, but it seems to have almost gone mainstream now, and that creeps me the hell out.

TLF, definitely understood, and in the context where you made that distinction, I think it was useful. I just wanted to make it clear that I was making a separate comparison rather than expressing some kind of funky-ass passive aggressive disagreement with what you'd just said. ;o)

Cheers,

TH

Charity: It's insulting because you said "maybe some of your gaming time should be allocated to READING", the obvious suggestion being that I don't spend enough time educating myself. The fact of the matter is that I am familiar with classic feminist theory. So when I post here, it is because I want the opinions of the commenters. These concepts are dynamic are vary among individuals and it is the individual differences I find elucidating.

Sojourner: I didn't defend the rape simulation. What I asked was whether these provide a positive outlet for people with rape fantasies. I would ask the same of your hypothetical lynch sims. I don't personally have a need for them and may even find them disturbing. I just think there's more to the issue that "This is disgusting." Once we've all agreed on that base level issue, it's pointless to say "I think it's gross, too." The productive discussion comes from exploring other angles.

The Law Fairy- That was a beautifully worded well thought out post. I almost with that I had compared rape to mugging so that it woudln't have been horribly out of place.

For the second time: I didn't compare rape to mugging, someone else did, and I called them on it.

Pretty soon they'll be coming up with some "statistics" to "prove" that rape isn't that frequent and women that have been raped really do have something a little different (meaning wrong) about them.

Also known as the "Stop confusing me with facts" defense.

In the US, there are about 110,000 rapes every year, down from 200,000 six years ago. The reason so many women report having been raped is carryover from the 1970s, 80s, and 90s, when rape rates were a lot higher than they are now.

As for the "Women get raped in parking lots" arguments, see above about being confused with facts. I got mugged on West 121st Street, right near Amsterdam. That doesn't change the fact that Harlem has higher robbery rates than Morningside Heights.

How about virtually hanging homosexuals? How about virtual gas chambers? Then how is virtual rape different? Unless you think that rape is sex rather than a crime of hate.

Red Alert has missions where you're supposed to virtually repress villagers and kill civilians.

I'm going to be charitable here, so let me pose this as a question: what sort of evidence leads you to the conclusion that rape is a hate crime rather than an ordinary violent crime?

CTC,
man, you really need to figure out what "calling someone out" means. i didnt respond to when you posted that in regards to my comment, because it really just didnt make sense and/or apply to what i was trying to say

there's an interesting story in this month's Marie Claire about a woman who was raped and then saught some answers by doing "qualitative research" with rapists serving time in prison. at one point in the story, she reports that her primary study subject basically thought that after the rape, women just go back to living their lives. he described a time when he and a few friends grabbed a woman off the street and took her to an abandoned house to rape her. at one point, she stopped begging and crying. according to the rapist, he thought that she understood that they weren't going to hurt her. the man couldn't understand why she was so scared and being raped would be such a huge deal for her.

rather than dissect the video game itself, the larger concern for me is about implications of this game and how this compared to other forms of hate crimes. if the CEO of second life is still reading this post, please answer this question: would Second Life allow a user to create a "snuff fantasy module" or a "lynching fantasy module" comparable to this one about rape?

Let's all be clear that "rape fantasies" often don't actually involve rape. I'm not up-to-date on the research, but Nancy Friday's qualitative survey research shows that women who say they have "rape" fantasies actuall crave loss of control.

there's an interesting story in this month's Marie Claire about a woman who was raped and then went looking for some answers by doing "qualitative research" with rapists serving time in prison. at one point in the story, she reports that her primary study subject basically thought that after the rape, women just go back to living their lives. he described a time when he and a few friends grabbed a woman off the street and took her to an abandoned house to rape her. at one point, she stopped begging and crying, and according to the rapist, he thought that she understood that they weren't going to hurt her. the man couldn't understand why she was so scared and why being raped would be such a huge deal for her.

rather than dissect the video game itself, the larger concern for me is about implications of this game and how this compared to other forms of hate crimes. if the CEO of Second Life is still following this thread, please answer this question: would Second Life allow a user to create a "snuff fantasy module" or a "lynching fantasy module" comparable to this one about rape?

Let's all be clear that "rape fantasies" often don't actually involve rape. I'm not up-to-date on the research, but Nancy Friday's qualitative survey research indicates that what women actually want when they say they have "rape fantasies" is loss of control, not rape.

Coast, yo