That cash register sound you just heard was from the future earnings for psychologists and cult deprogrammers. In the alternative, imagine that their pupils turned into dollar signs.

Ew.
I mean, I'm sure (I hope?) this is all well-intentioned. But the thought that fathers can "divert" their teenage daughters' budding interest in boys is plainly loony.
And yeah, creepy.
I wonder what percentage of the girls at these events are laughing their asses of in private.

huh? ive never met my father (and judging from fathers i have met, im damn glad) but i wasnt interested in boys until like the 9th grade. wonder how theyd try to explain that one hah.

i'm all for fathers setting good examples for their daughters, but making them ashamed of their sexuality while at the same time celebrating their "beauty" and physicality, is sending mixed messages. i agree that the world's future psychologist's will benefit from this culture of shame and self-loathing, of which this is but one example.

I like the dance scene set to "My Heart Will Go On"

you know, it also pisses me off that this is always about girls, and not boys. like girls have to police themselves against the prying hands of boys, but the boys can just keep on acting ... like boys. all the pressure is on the female in discussions of abstinence and purity.

And what, a non-virgin can't?

(Actually, that does sound like typical "you poke it, you own it" misogyny---that she is somehow not her own person but the property of the first guy who fucked her, so she cannot give herself to her husband.)

And, jeez, a guy who thinks getting to poke his dick through a tiny scrap of flesh like he's popping a piece of bubble wrap is so valuable an addition to his "wedding gift" that it's worth it for her to spend years celibate so that she can get it for him, says something about the comparative value of the woman in question---years of her life are worth one moment of his, one orgasm of his, and then said oh-so-valuable thing is just as gone as it would've been if she'd started having sex at fifteen---no more, no less. Such a guy, who thinks that one-pop miniscule difference is worth years of my life, is really not the type I want to marry. Let alone give such a valuable expensive gift to.

OK, the "strike" html tag is not working. "Valuable" was supposed to be struck out.

“huh? ive never met my father (and judging from fathers i have met, im damn glad)� I don’t know what kind of fathers you have met, but I had a very good relationship with my dad when I was growing up and I still do, so do a lot of people I know, but it doesn’t mean those dads can be replacements for boyfriends (It only brings incest to mind).

Come on, amy.

You know boys can't control themselves. Except for 'a woman's future husband'

well thats great for you sojourner but a vast majority of people cant say the same. im fine with not taking my chances on whether the dad i get is a shithead or not.

ok well maybe not vast majority (just thought about that haha) but i just dont see what the point was in bringing up that you have a great relationship with your dad, as do a bunch of your freinds. ok, i dont, as well as everyone i know and many people i dont know. thats all i was getting at (not trying to speak for everyone else in the world, woops!)

That video makes me want to puke.

I saw this video via Pandagon, and the "give myself as a wedding gift" was my favorite part too. Nice to know that young girls are being taught to objectify themselves before society gives them a nasty awakening, huh? After all, a woman is only worth her entact hymen, don'tcha know...

Well, elktrodot, you said "ive never met my father (and judging from fathers i have met, im damn glad)� ". To me that implies: Dad's are shitheads anyways so why have any kind of relationship with them. My point was that, there are lots of great dads out there and that such generalizations are insulting to them and to those of us who've had great dads. And whether or not some or all dads are shitty parents doesn't change the fact that this video is disgusting, so I don't see why you brought that up. And , if you were just trying to say "ok, i dont, as well as everyone i know and many people i dont know." Then I don't see what that had anything at all to do with the subject of this post.

This is so creepy! I love the idea of father/daughter bonding, since I do believe a lot of girls do end up in bad relationships because of "daddy issues", but this is *not* the way to bond or solve that problem. Not only does feel incestous mixing sexuality with parental relationships, it's clearly going to leave these girls scarred, especially since the odds are they are going to break this promise in college anyway. Why can't the fathers just promise to be there for their daughters, and the daughters promise to be good, thoughtful, responsible people in all aspects of their lives?
(And yeah, it's messed up that the attention is focused on father-daughter and not mother-son...)

I am pretty sure the point was that a good/bad/absent relationship with one's father is unrelated to when one starts digging boys (assuming one will).

Did some of those girls look really uncomfortable to you?

I think I'll forego my usual griping at the lack of captions in these video clips. This one sure doesn't need any larger an audience.

Creepy enough just to watch it sans audio.

And given all the stupid ballerina crap, what would they do for the boys anyway? Dress them up in shining armor???? Gag.

“I am pretty sure the point was that a good/bad/absent relationship with one's father is unrelated to when one starts digging boys�

Ok. I see… I got distracted by the “(and judging from fathers i have met, im damn glad)� and iddn’t read the “I’ve never met my father but i wasnt interested in boys until like the 9th grade.� My bad.
I apologize.

ugh! i HATE how these decent ideas keep getting corrupted!

good relationship with your father? awesome!

deciding not to sleep with anyone until if/when you get married? if that's what's right for you - go for it!

signing pledges when you're prepubescent and still think that members of your future dating pool are yucky? not such an awesome idea.

my twin 14-year-old male cousins have born again christians as parents. and while i can appreciate and respect their faith, i have ginormous trouble understanding the need of them and their fellow congregants to make sure that their kids sign all kinds of contracts before they have any actual idea of who they are/will be. i'm all for laying groundwork to try to make sure their kids will be decent people, but contracts!? ugh.

hell yes they looked uncomfortable. they're on their first date. with their dads!

i have to admit the mother-son version of this would be even creepier.

this is just another example of the right-wing's unceasing obsession to control the behavior of other human beings. brainwashing and indoctrinating children to a their own interpretation of "morality" and social conformity.

i wonder if GWB brought his daughters to purity balls? if so, the plan has clearly backfired.

"i have to admit the mother-son version of this would be even creepier."

Why creepier? I'd think possibly equally creepy, but definitely not moreso.

I didn't/don't have a fabulous relationship with my father. I wish I did, and I'll always love him (which is much more than I can say for my sister or even, to a lesser extent, my brother), but he's a very typical masculinist conservative Christian. We never did one of the purity ball things but we were very active in that community when I was a kid. I can tell you from experience that most of these girls really *do* genuinely believe it... some of us (thank God!) grow up to realize the real world is a hell of a lot more complicated, but I think it's ridiculous to expect children to make an adult decision like whether or not they will ever have sex before they meet "the one," if they ever meet him/her. I mean, it seems to me that sort of decision is *at least* as grown up as the decision *to* have sex even just once, which I think we can all agree is a decision these children are also too young to make.

"i have to admit the mother-son version of this would be even creepier."

Hold the phone, why would that be any creepier than this? Sexualizing a relationship with a parent is wrong and harmful, are girls being posessed by their fathers simply more natural or acceptable to you? Thats the sort of pervasive attitude against women that lets things like this exist and flourish!

This whole thing just goes right back to women being owned by their fathers then husbands - where is the part where she takes ownership of herself and her sexuality? Oh wait, I forgot, theyre just women.

oh! it's an event! i thought it was a *thing*... i was envisioning a big, plastic bubble that you wrapped yourself in until your wedding day.

hmmm... in some ways, that's actually less creepy.

oh, gross.

What does the "Memories Key to Captivating Beauty" mean?

The video gives me the heebie jeebies.

Wow, it's like Promise Keepers - Junior Edition. So many gender sterotypes crammed into that "pledge." And during the daughter's part, was I the only one who wondered why her future children would give a shit about whether she had sex before marriage?

I also hate how this is putting a bad spin on good concepts. I remember stuff like Daddy/Daughter Events in Girl Scouts and they were great. They were special because fathers usually weren't very involved in scouting with their daughters (not always but the leaders were women and such). I would hate to think that these kind of organized father/daughter activities would be seen the same as purity balls.

Wasn't the mother-son version of this the one shown on Arrested Development with Buster and his Mom in some sort of Peter Pan outfits?

That's just about the creepiest thing ever. Is there any chance it is a hoax *hopes fervently*
I haven't been able to find any really good confirmation on the phenomenon, and, sitting in Denmark, this seems surreal.

no, it's not a hoax unfortunately...it's way too real

I've written at length on the purity balls and their attendant baggage here and here, for anyone who wants an extra dose of creepy (cottage industries of purity jewelry emphasizing Daddy's ownership of his daughter's genitals, and, more disturbingly, potential deletrious effects on rape reporting by girls who have taken the pledge). The print version's bad enough; the video captures so much more than the still pictures I'd seen before...

The abstinence movement is meant for both males and females so there should be videos about purity balls for boys too -- moms and sons vowing he will remain pure until marriage -- otherwise it's sexist.

No-one is talking about the use of a Victorian code word for intercourse, "cover," by the fathers. It isn't just the imagery of incest, they are saying they will sleep with their daughters until they give up those tasty young vaginas to the husband. Ick!

Norbizness, you're thinking of "Motherboy," which as far as I can gather is an event for mother-son teams to dress up in matching costumes and just generally be disturbing to everyone. Buster usually goes with Lucille, but in the AD episode, George Michael ends up going instead for some reason that escapes me. It's a fantastic episode. Sometimes my boyfriend just says, "Motherboy" out of nowhere and we both quietly giggle.

I think that the reason there is not a corresponding mother/son ritual in this community is the fear that, if a mother and son are too close, the son will turn out gay.

Norbiz and Magpie, thanks for the laugh. I miss AD, and I still say cancelling it was a mistake, damn the ratings!

I think that the episode was entitled:
Motherboy XXX
(because it was the 30th year of the dance.)

maybe I'm wrong and it was the 20th year.
Anyway, those x's just add extra giggles.

freakin' creepy.

I especially liked the liberal use of large keys as set decorations in the 11-year-old's "bedroom".

Bring back the chastity belt!

(Seriously though, how long before they actually do?)

AKA: The JoBenet Memorial School for Trophy Offspring.

I am reminded of my friend who lost her virginity in college while still wearing the abstinance ring her dad gave her when she was 16. Yeah, she freaked out when she realized it.

I'm proud of myself (and y'all) for being able to sit through the whole thing, but that's really the only positive thing that can come out of my mouth right now.

Ewww. Just ewww.

Cheers,

TH

oh... my... gawd...

This whole idea that young girls who don't have relationships with their fathers automatically gravitate towards men and seek sexual attention or love from them, really gets on my nerves. I never had a "father figure" in my life and the men who were in my life either physically abused me or were distant. That made it HARDER for me to be sexual with men, allow myself to open up in relationships and trust men. It sure as hell didn't make it easier to get into bed with one or embrace the attention I was getting from men. People constantly accuse me of having a father complex because I have dated older men as well...why don't they ever think, hey this person has enough confidence in herself that she desires someone who is her equal in intelligence and maturity?

This video is insane. I can't believe people actually think they are somehow helping their child by having them devote their hymen to their fathers. It's odd that this new rite of passage completely conflicts the old. In most cultures women who are around the age these girls are, have coming out parties where they are introduced to males as being available to receive sexual and romantic attention. Instead these women are being told to remain as asexual children. It's really creepy.

Alas, these things are far too real. They were just starting up in earnest when I was a teenager -- the pledges anyway, if not the balls. My brother took one (so, it's not always sexist. Or at least it wasn't before.) but I wouldn't. My parents were smart enough to realize that too, so they didn't push it. But these things creep me out.

And was I the only one who thought, when the teenage girl said she wasn't interested in boys yet, 'well, maybe you're a lesbian?' Of course, that possiblity wouldn't occur to these people, but.. .

Maybe I'm imagining it, but I could swear that the girl at the 3-minute mark is trying desperately not to laugh.

Vervain,

I thought so too.

as i said on my blog....

This is truly unbelievable.

I don’t know what rankles me the most, the creepy incest angle, the hypocrisy of these fathers, the sheer naiveté of some of these girls (the guilt, fear, and loss of self-worth and self-determination in the other girls), or the presumption that the primary force driving female sexuality and sexual behavior has something to do with a girl’s father. (It may be news to some of these people but most experts agree that there is surely something innate about a woman’s sexuality.)

The people who think this kind of thing is a good idea are inherently creepy (and/or asexual, repressed, and misguided) and as much as they drive me crazy I can’t help but feel a little sorry for them in light of their undoubtedly lame sex life.

Good God, these young girls are on dates with their fathers!

This is just wrong. Especially the part where the father says to his daughter, "I will cover you in my authority." That is just way too sexual.

I think the previous poster, mirm, posting on Nov. 9th at 3:38PM says it better than I could. I had no idea "cover" was a euphemism for sexual intercourse until I read that post, but its subtext is obvious from this video.

These girls should be old enough to think for themselves. That should be encouraged instead of having daddy do their thinking for them.

Unutterably sad.

"The abstinence movement is meant for both males and females so there should be videos about purity balls for boys too -- moms and sons vowing he will remain pure until marriage -- otherwise it's sexist."
BINGO. It's the creepiest mix of sexism, religion and incestuous undertones ever.

I am not a prude. I have raised two lovely daughters who have a daughter of their own. I am helping raise one of them in my home. I don't know where that crap came from, but if someone suggests something like that or had when my girls were younger I would have knocked them on their a**es. These are really sick do gooder religious fanatics that are blinded by their stupid ideas into thinking they are doing great. The woman in your video has a warped sense of what is right. I would resent someone telling me I needed to do that with my daughters. She may have been abused as a child but if not she is leading a lot of other youngsters down a slippery slope. Can't these fathers think for themselves? GAG!

Ok yeah. Dress up the 10 year olds in clothes that make them look Just BARELY 18 and then talk to them about how they should remain celibate. And yeah, it's totally creepy.

What are we to do in a society where puberty is coming sooner and marriage is coming later?

And honestly, why aren't we seeing more nutbag programs aimed at keeping young boys celibate until marriage. It takes two, right? Are fathers still slapping their young bucks on the back when they score?

Yep. They are.

dhsredhead wrote:

And was I the only one who thought, when the teenage girl said she wasn't interested in boys yet, 'well, maybe you're a lesbian?'

No, you weren't the only one. That's the same thing I thought when the teenage girl said that and it's the same thing I thought at that age too. And I'm a lesbian.

This type of activity has been in the making for years. Especially with the corporate take over of our lives along with the other fatherless children. As a father and mother the end of child bearing does end at birth. It begins at birth.. the father should make a vowel to his wife at the time of marriage to devote time to his children and not through corporate sponsorship
Amen and enough of that evangelism ...
thank you

"After all, a woman is only worth her entact hymen, don'tcha know..."

Then we are in agreement. I know I want to wait for the marriage I don't plan on having before I do the- from what I've observed- overrated experience. I know my future husband wants me to be a vagina with a head. That is, after all, a woman's place in this world.

(In case you didn't realize, that was sarcasm. Don't comment about what I wrote. It would be a real dumbass indeed to type that on this site in seriousness.)

I can't remember whether or not I've ever taken an abstinence pledge, which should tell you something about their efficacy!

Cheers,

TH

VERY creepy.

As for the issue of "cover," my understanding is that it referred to the legal merging of a woman with her husband. For example, that a woman's earnings would automatically belong to her husband, etc. (also creepy.)

Oh yeah. "Covering" may also allude to ancient Jewish concepts in the Hebrew Bible having to do with attonment rituals and "covering" of sin. (ie, forgiving it, releasing from guilt, etc.) The name of the observance of Yom Kippur comes from a word meaning "to cover."

What is it with the radical right and all these weird covenants? Covenant marriages, covenant fatherhoods/daughterhoods--never mind that the power differential invalidates any agreement from the get-go anyway...

I'm half expecting to see covenanted pet adoption now. "I shall shower you with Godly food, and you shall not pee on my carpet." Or, for the benefit of televangelists who hire gay prostitutes, covenanted prostitution contracts: "Verily, I shall leave the fruits of my labors on the dresser..."

I would say it's insane, but insanity is usually much easier to comprehend than this.

Cheers,

TH

Some of you have asked why a Mother-Son version of this would be even creepier. I can easily think of one good reason. Young teenaged boys have an unfortunate lack of control over certain parts of their anatomy. Certain unmentionables occassionally pop up just to have a look around. This tends to happen at the most inadvertent times. Think about that, and tell me it's not even creepier...

As someone who has taken a purity pledge, please let me clear up a few of these concerns. Although I have never participated in a purity ball (and I do agree that the clip made it look a bit incestuous), I have been exposed to abstinence pledges, speakers, etc.... And, I still consider myself a feminist (although a more moderate/less liberal one).
1)I have never heard, in any presentation besides this clip, that the father is saving his daughter's purity for himself. The event is always focused on how the girl will benefit, how saving yourself for marriage raises your self-esteem, makes you feel like you have more to contribute to society than your sexuality, and other related arguments. The father is there to protect his daughter from getting hurt, and I've never seen this done in a creepy fashion. Whether or not you agree with some of these arguments, at least be aware that they are considered to be in the girl's best interest.
2) I have never heard of a purity ball for boys, because seriously, most boys would hate getting all dressed up and going to a fancy party. Usually the events geared toward boys are more casual. That said, every church I've ever attended and every church-sponsored abstinence program that I've seen or heard of, has a similar event geared toward guys. At least in my experience, there is a definite emphasis on teaching boys to respect girls and to see them as more than just sexual objects. And, these programs are big on teaching boys about personal responsibility. So, in that sense, these abstinence programs are not focused solely on reining in female sexuality.
3) Whether or not you advocate these sorts of things is entirely up to you, but please be aware that churches and parents all handle these things differently, so one admittedly creepy video may not be the best indicator of the abstinence movement as a whole.
4) I personally support the idea of abstinence education because it takes the pressure off. Sure, there are still guys who come onto you, and yes, some people think you're very strange, but usually when you say you're waiting until marriage you get one of three responses: 1)"Huh...ok (confused stare);" 2) "Really? Well, it was nice talking to you;" or 3) "Yeah? I bet that's really a challenge. What has that been like for you?" I personally feel extremely empowered by knowing that my boyfriend/male friends/etc. see me as a person and not as a sexual being or a sexual conquest. I've found that abstinence has shown me a lot about the great things in life that have nothing to do with sex. Let's be honest...sex complicates things. While you may believe that it is worth the complications, please don't look down on others who do not hold your same views or outlook on life. Creating a diverse society means welcoming people of all sorts, including virgins.

Kristen -
If you were to peruse previous posts and comments on abstinence-only education, purity balls, abstinence jewelry, etc. I think you'd find everyone here is very supportive of those who choose to remain virginal/celibate. What's usually objected to is the "scare tactic" methods and distribution of misinformation used in abstinence education, and in the case of purity balls/jewelry, the greater focus/pressure on females over males to remain "pure," and the disturbing use of language that implies that a woman is the property first of her father, then of her husband, and the value of that property is severely diminished (pretty much right down to zero) once she's removed from the shrinkwrap, as it were.
I don't think there's anything wrong with remaining virginal or celibate--in fact I think it's a good idea, as it's the only 100%-certain way to avoid unwanted pregnancies and STDs. I just don't understand why people feel the need to sign contracts and make solemn vows about it--if it's what you choose to do, isn't choosing it enough?

The video in question has myseriously disappeared from the face of the earth. Or from YouTube, at any rate.

However, a couple of promo clips for the PB are up at the producer's site: One Hat Design

Some of you have asked why a Mother-Son version of this would be even creepier. I can easily think of one good reason. Young teenaged boys have an unfortunate lack of control over certain parts of their anatomy. Certain unmentionables occassionally pop up just to have a look around. This tends to happen at the most inadvertent times. Think about that, and tell me it's not even creepier...

You're admitting an incestuous bond in these purity balls. So fathers are probably suppressing erections at these balls.

Gaak. The video is still up at Google Video:

Carenet Purity Ball DVD Preview

Bleccchhhhhh.

I noticed this thread after checking my website referrer logs today. "anomalous4" linked to my site saying I produced the YouTube video. This is incorrect... I have no connection to that video. However, I was hired to produce two promo videos for a local purity ball in IL, and as such have a few comments to make:

I am 30 years old and just got married five months ago. My wife and I were both virgins when we got married, and each of us considers ourself a gift to the other person. I can guarantee you that our sex life is in no way diminished because of our lack of "experience" or "practice". In fact, I would argue it's so much better than it ever would have been otherwise. There are no comparisons going on in our minds between our spouse and past lovers. Every step of intimacy we took was together--a unique experience for us both--and it was so incredibly special. There is a bond between us now that is not shared with anyone else in the world. I am so thankful that my wife kept herself fully for me, and she's glad I kept myself fully for her.

When I become a father someday, I want to do whatever I can to help my children keep themselves wholly for their future mates so they can experience the same amazing pleasure and happiness I did. That doesn't mean I'll treat them harshly or lock them up in the basement until their wedding days... it means I'll love them and earn their trust and teach them so they won't want to give themselves away prematurely.

People who think these purity balls encourage incest, or the ownership of one person over another, or some sort of erotic love between a father and his dauther have got it completely backwards.

skote, I'm a 28-year-old feminist who preaches safe sex and I'm also operating on the idea that I'll go through life with exactly one sexual partner. That's probably partly because it was the way I was raised--I am a lifelong Mississippian, after all--but it's also because I choose not to have the specter of potential sexual contact hanging over every single opposite-sex friendship I have, since most of my close peer friendships are with women, and have been since I was a teenager.

However... I do find something very disturbing about the idea, presented in that video, that fathers are supposed to provide the "male affection" that daughters need. I am aware of the fact that this was not a direct reference to sexuality, but I do find it strange that the video presents that dating and sexual relationships and father-daughter relationships have interchangeable parts like that.

I would be more inclined to say that sexual pressure on teenage girls would decrease substantially if we created a gender equitable world where all relationships between opposite-sex partners weren't sexualized, weren't weighted down with the idea that sex is the natural outcome or "What's wrong with..." There are people who buy into ideas like the ladder theory, where friendships are expendable, and purity balls that encourage exclusive opposite-gender relationship with fathers do encourage what I would call an at least ambiguously incestuous dynamic.

I am also very concerned about the idea of "keeping [oneself] fully," as if one loses something when one has sex for the first time. I wonder: Are victims of rape, or real incest, deprived of the option of keeping themselves fully for their significant others? Are divorcees? I know plenty of women who "kept themselves fully" for a spouse who treated them horribly, then remarried into a much healthier relationship. Are those relationships any less full, any less intimate, simply because one or both parties might have a sexual history?

So I think we need to ask ourselves these hard questions when we endorse our decisions for others, particularly when we try to impose them as long-term decisions on our kids. I have no problem for a "wait until you're 18" abstinence pledge; I wish everyone did wait until they were adults (and sober, and not being manipulated) before having their first sexual experience. I wish, even more, that everyone had the opportunity to choose whether or not to have their first sexual experience--some people have that option taken away from them.

I do have to admire the measured tone of your post. I think you've posted a very calm and decent message to a thread and put yourself in an environment that can't be comfortable. I appreciate that. But now that you're here, I do need to emphasize that our objections to purity balls are based on some pretty deeply held convictions, and one of those convictions is not, at least in the case of most of us, that there's anything wrong with waiting until marriage (or whatever same-gender equivalent the law allows; that's a whole other can of worms, but it's worth mentioning that waiting until marriage is literally not an option for many lesbians and gay men, much less an appealing option).

Cheers,

TH

Tom,

Thank you for your comments to my post. I should say that I did not come to this thread to start a fight or to debate anything. I only came here to set the record straight that I did not produce the YouTube video, and to give first-hand witness to the fact that purity balls do not encourage incestuous relationships.

However, I would like to reply to a couple of your statements:

I do find it strange that the video presents that dating and sexual relationships and father-daughter relationships have interchangeable parts like that.

The premise behind purity balls is that most girls need--and will seek out--love and affection from a man. A little girl needs a strong daddy to love her, hold her, comfort her, and cherish her. She needs arms she can run to where she is safe and accepted. She needs a listening and understanding ear. As the girl grows up, these needs remain. If daddy's not around, she will look elsewhere to have them met. But where can she go? A boyfriend is the typical answer, and a sexual relationship is the typical outcome. But it's usually not the sex she's looking for--it's the love.

I believe purity balls are primarily for the dads. Their message is this: Your daughter needs you to actively love her. Give her your time, your attention, your heart. Meet these needs she has until the day when her husband can come along and meet them in an even more full way.

I am also very concerned about the idea of "keeping [oneself] fully," as if one loses something when one has sex for the first time. I wonder: Are victims of rape, or real incest, deprived of the option of keeping themselves fully for their significant others?

This is a very good question, and I will tread carefully in attempting to answer it. When someone has sex for the first time, they are giving (not losing) something that they can only give once in their lifetime. It was a precious thing when I gave my virginity to my wife on our wedding night. Our sex was awkward and didn't even work very well, but it was new and it was ours alone.

Victims of rape or incest are truly victims because something has wrongfully been taken from them. Then can no longer give the wonderful naiviety of a first time experience to their spouse. I am not saying they can't have successful relationships or that they can't be happy. However, I believe there will always be something missing, something broken to a certain degree. That's the real tragedy of rape and incest... it goes far beyond the physical act. The effects last for years.

I agree with you in wishing that everyone could choose when they give up their virginity. Rape and incest are terrible acts with lasting consequences.

skote, you've posted something very patient, it certainly sounds level-headed, and you've put it as gently as you can given your beliefs in this area. I respect that, and I certainly respect your decisions. I even have some understanding of why you might personally feel that purity balls are not creepy, and while I can't get over my gut-level reaction to the whole idea, you have changed my overall impression of these things by explaining to me how fathers at least might have good intentions with regard to all this.

I suppose part of the issue with regard to the rest of the post, dealing with adult sexuality, is that you seem to see a major shift that comes with losing one's virginity--with regard to innocence, with regard to naivete, with regard to radically changing who I am--that I don't see. I know people who have lots and lots of sex who I would describe as much more innocent, much less gritty, than I am. One of the most innocent, the most naive, people I've ever met was a bar-hopping gay man who was into leather. He was much more innocent than I was, much less streetwise, much easier to freak out, much less able to comprehend evil, and I would say no more or less of a sexual creature, except (presumably) when he was actually having sex, than I am.

Maybe when I've actually had a sexual encounter I'll get some of this mystique, but I doubt it. I really do. I know an awful lot about sexual anatomy and physiology because I find the subject interesting--not really from a prurient angle, but more of a "gosh, this is fascinating, and one day I'll need this information" angle. So I know what's where and what to look for and in what order and so forth. I get the mechanics. I expect my first sexual encounter will be awkward like everybody else's, but I doubt the actual mechanics of sex will shock me all that much, though the sensations probably will, and the opportunity to express affection in that particular way probably will.

I've also seen enough relationships to get an idea of some of the psychology involved. For me, sex is something people do with their bodies. Maybe for some people there is a sexual innocence that is given up with a first sexual encounter, but I don't think there will be for me, and I don't really feel in any way victimized by the fact that it's not there. I think what it boils down to is that we might just have completely different ways of seeing the world, and that the way we see sex might be a part of that.

I definitely agree that rape and incest are more than physical acts. I've never been victimized in this way, and I won't speak for victims, but I know from the stories I've heard from people I care about who were victimized in this way that both are such brutally, mind-numbingly violent acts of domination and hate that I have trouble seeing the loss of sexual innocence, per se, as the biggest problem, though I have heard enough to know that sexual assault affects different people in different ways.

I don't mean this as an argument, because as you said you didn't post to debate, and your posts weren't written as debates so much as explanations of what you personally believe. I respect that you've chosen this tone. But I think there really is a serious gulf in our perspectives with regard to sex, which might be why I find the idea of purity balls creepy on a gut level and why you would probably likewise find some of the things I don't consider creepy to be creepy on a gut level. This is not to say that I think our perspectives are equivalent--obviously I believe I'm right and you're wrong, and while you have been gentle enough not to say so outright, I'm sure you hold the opposite view--but you've come in here in what must have been a very intimidating environment and told your story honestly and with an obvious respect for others reading your posts. I can't say anything unkind about that. I have to admire it. I wish I thought I'd sound as kind and reasonable if our situations were reversed.

Cheers,

TH

If daddy's not around, she will look elsewhere to have them met. But where can she go? A boyfriend is the typical answer, and a sexual relationship is the typical outcome. But it's usually not the sex she's looking for--it's the love.

I beg to differ. I've never had a father figure or a "dad to run to", but I lost my virginity at the age of 22 with someone I truly loved (we're about to celebrate our 10th anniversary). I think the decision to start having an active sex life is much more complex than just trying to make up for daddy's absence. In that case, what is the equivalent for boys? And what is the equivalent for homosexual girls? Is the relationship with mommy at fault?

Re. the rape/incest issue, I do agree that it goes way beyond the physical, but it's mainly because rape negates the victim's diginity. After a rape, you have to reconstruct yourself and it's a lengthy process. What makes it worse in the case of a virgin, as I see it, is that it will be her only experience of sex (before she can find someone she trusts, that is). I don't think it has anything to do with the idea of "gift". After losing your virginity, you're still pretty much the same person, you're not more jaded or anything. It's just you, with a little extra knowledge.

Besides, I object to the idea that virginity is a unique gift to the person you love. I'm all for teaching teenagers to wait until they feel they're truly ready, not to let anyone pressurize them and to do it with someone they feel really comfortable with. But the person you lose your virginity with won't necessarily be the one you spend the rest of your life with (that's my case, but I seem to be an exception among my friends and acquaintances). You can sincerely love someone and find out a few years later that you might have been wrong or you can change and your lives can take different paths. You might find the perfect soulmate later on in life, does it make it any less unique and wonderful that you had a sexual past?

If daddy's not around, she will look elsewhere to have them met. But where can she go? A boyfriend is the typical answer, and a sexual relationship is the typical outcome. But it's usually not the sex she's looking for--it's the love.

Affection from fathers is important as is affection from mothers. Communication between parents and children prevents alot of teen problems. Girls in these purity balls already have fathers so it seems like the point is they are trying to communicate better with daughters or it's about distant fathers who need to prioritize their parenting more. It seems like something fathers in general need to do more of. Connecting more with both sons and daughters would prevent alot of teen problems. Teen pregnancy involves both boys and girls so fathers can work on this on their own. Throwing in abstinence and purity makes it a little creepy because this is more about communication with teens than something sexual.

Tom,

I find your replies refreshing to read and you, likewise, seem a level-headed guy. I also appreciate your honesty in regard to your own sexuality.

For me, sex is something people do with their bodies. Maybe for some people there is a sexual innocence that is given up with a first sexual encounter, but I don't think there will be for me, and I don't really feel in any way victimized by the fact that it's not there.

I can appreciate this. My understanding from "the other side" is that sex is much more than a physical act. It bonds people together. It is the most intimate of connections, the most personal way two people can share themselves. When you are naked with another person, you are exposed and vulnerable, so it requires and builds trust. My sex with my own wife is a good thermometer on our relationship. If there is a problem between us, our sex suffers. If we are right with each other, WOW... it's amazing!

When I first met my wife, I had not so much as held a girl's hand or kissed a girl. This is not because I was under some strict parents or felt burdened by some artificial religious rules. It was simply because I hadn't found the right girl and didn't want to give those things up to someone with whom I would not spend the rest of my life.

Once I did meet her, we slowly progressed through the physical stages of intimacy, savoring each moment as it came. Holding her hand for the first time was filled with so much meaning and pleasure that I can hardly communicate it. Even sitting next to her and feeling the body heat of her arm near mine was indescribable. Why? Because it was new. We finally kissed--two months after getting engaged--and I didn't sleep all night long. :) The things I'm describing might sound like things you'd expect to hear from a 13 year old. But see, that's the point... so often, people experience these things over and over again, starting when they're early teenagers, that the experiences don't hold any value or meaning by the time the people are in true, life-long relationships.

I, like most people, enjoy pleasure. I think sex is one of the most amazing ways to experience pleasure and I want to maximize it for myself and for my wife. Also, for my future children, I want them to be able to experience it to the fullest as well. Anything that would take away from their getting "the best" I would want to steer them away from.

So what I'm describing is not just the first time a person has sex. I'm describing an entire context of growth in sexual experience and the emotional/spiritual bonding between two people that takes place, from light physical contact (sitting next to each other, hand holding), all the way to intercourse. I believe that this experience is best had when it is entirely experienced with one other person... all the way down the line. When one moves away from this, there is still pleasure to be had, but one moves farther away from the pinnacle of enjoyment.

both are such brutally, mind-numbingly violent acts of domination and hate that I have trouble seeing the loss of sexual innocence, per se, as the biggest problem

This is true... I didn't mean to imply that the loss of sexual innocence is the only or even necessarily the biggest problem. There's also pregnancy, disease, emotional stress, physical hurt, and so on that accompany these tragedies.

The abstinence movement is meant for both males and females so there should be videos about purity balls for boys too -- moms and sons vowing he will remain pure until marriage -- otherwise it's sexist.

Donna,

I agree. The organization which hired me to produce purity ball videos also has an event every two years for fathers and sons called The Journey. They stress abstinance and respect for women, among other things.

Girls in these purity balls already have fathers so it seems like the point is they are trying to communicate better with daughters or it's about distant fathers who need to prioritize their parenting more. It seems like something fathers in general need to do more of.

Exactly.

Throwing in abstinence and purity makes it a little creepy because this is more about communication with teens than something sexual.

Very insightful. I agree that loving communication between fathers and daughters would go a long way to solving "teen problems". However, communication has content. There is both heart and knowledge that needs to be passed on to the next generation.

I'm uncomfortable with your posts, skote, for the following reasons.

I was always infuriated as a teenaged girl by adults talking about whether or not I should have sex. I did not grow up in a home where self-respect was encouraged or at times even allowed, but I always felt that my body belonged to me. Not to horny teenaged boys, not to my parents. I stayed a virgin until I was 20 because I had a feeling I would love sex, and I didn't want that preoccupation to get in the way of my graduating high school with good enough grades to get away to college. I'm glad I waited. I wouldn't presume to tell any other teenagers what they *should* do that would work best for them.

I also was raped, by someone I was dating, in my mid-twenties. I didn't get pregnant, an STD, or even physically hurt during or as a result of that rape. The harm I experienced from the rape - which, knowing myself as I do, I think would have been the same if it had happened to me as my first sexual encounter - was in the mindfuck of knowing I was physically there with a person who did not recognize me as being present. I felt canceled out by him, and it left me haunted, heart broken, and not sure whether I hated him more for doing it or myself more for "letting" him.

If I thought that being a non-virgin and the trauma of being raped were going to leave me less able to experience copious amounts of joy and pleasure with someone who cares about me, I would be suicidal. Ah, wait, I was suicidal for a while, because of the rape and some subsequent sexual choices I made. Happily, my own sexuality seems to be more resilient than almost any other part of me. I am not getting laid presently, and don't plan to until I meet someone I care about and feel cared for by. It is one of the scariest things I've ever done, embarking on this new approach to sex at the age of 38, and it is also what I would hope for, but not demand of, any teenagers I ever had an influence on. I've had enough mediocre and bad sex to know that I don't need to take crapshoots anymore with strangers. I've also had enough great sex to know that it must be a fucking mindblowing thing to have with someone you love who loves you back. That is all I wish for, for anybody else - the best sex possible in the most mutually affirming situations they can find. I'm glad for you and your wife if your situation is what does it for you. I dislike the implication that any other road to that destination is not *quite* as sure or valid or effective.

Ah, and a p.s. about needing affection and attention and not getting it from a father (or mother for that matter) - I tend to have looked to emotionally intimate relationships with platonic women friends for the love and acceptance I didn't get at home, not to sexual relationships with men. I'm not saying everyone does that, but I am saying it's a not-altogether-uncommon option between women, to have validating closeness with each other in friendships.

My big question here is.... Why don't sons do this with their mothers? Afterall, it should go both ways, shouldn't it? Why should only girls abstain? Why should they abstain at all? Why is it so important that the girls are virgins for their future husbands? Why not the other way around? This is sickening, and yes, even creepy.