I went to the article on GLBTQ friendliness ranking of campus, and in the sidebar was an article entitled "My Virgin Wife Won't Have Sex With Me" (http://www.slate.com/id/2149522/?nav=ais). It's a Dear Prudence, in which a man's wife, who remained a virgin until marriage, does not wish to have sex. Prudence tells the man that he has "exercised heroic restraint for the past several years." Heroic restraint in what? Not raping her?

Joe Francis was fined $2.1 million, not $21 million. Either way it's more money than I'll ever have, though.

And Esme, did you notice also that Prudence told a woman whose husband didn't want kids but wouldn't have a vasectomy that her only option was to have her tubes tied if she was sick of taking the pill. I used to like Emily Yoffe, too.

just fixed the typo; thanks!

Re: the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival--

In late August, Camp Trans put out a bogus news release claiming the Michigan Fest had changed a decades-old policy, followed a few days later by a news release from the Michigan Fest producer clarifying that there had been no change in policy and that the stated intention of the Fest is that it's for womyn-born-womyn who have lived their lives as womyn.

I take it that when you cast Lisa Vogel's clarification as "bad news," this means you don't support having one week of the year, at one festival out of hundreds, available to womyn-born-womyn only. Quoting from Lisa's news release:

“I deeply desire healing in our communities, and I can see and feel that you want that too. I would love for you and the other organizers of Camp Trans to find the place in your hearts and politics to support and honor space for womyn who have had the experience of being born and living their life as womyn. I ask that you respect that womon born womon is a valid and honorable gender identity. I also ask that you respect that womyn born womyn deeply need our space -- as do all communities who create space to gather, whether that be womyn of color, trans womyn or trans men . . . I wish you well, I want healing, and I believe this is possible between our communities, but not at the expense of deeply needed space for womyn born womyn.�

Restect for the gender identity of woman-born-woman would not seem too much to ask, especially from those who identify as feminists...

thanks--

Gosh, one wonders where you could find enough transgender women to get up a hand of bridge.

Not enough to worry about for the rest of us, much less to be resenting the lose of "deeply needed space".

President Troy Newman said the Wichita, Kan., group, now known as Operation Rescue, relinquished its charitable status and reorganized more than a year ago.

''We gave it back. We didn't fight any sort of deal,'' he said.

I guess they didn't need the tax exempt status as much as they wanted to lobby politicians. Odd that the NYT would say it was "revoked" when they reorganized, under some different chapter. Guess the IRS was just slow.

Now, what will happen to all the Black Churches that open their doors to Democrat campaigns? As I recall it was Thomas Jefferson, a Democrat, back when they were Democrat-Republicans, who said in a letter that he wanted the wall of separation between Church and State to be permeable, so that the moral precepts taught in Church, could make it into the State, but the State would forever be barred from influencing the Church.

What was bogus about the press release? The festival used to expell transwomen, now they won't. Lisa Vogel admitted this herself.

The fact some people don't like this doesn't make it bogus.

Don, you're joking, right? Jefferson said the wall of separation ought to be absolute and very impermeable.

Ann, Michigan considers making HPV vaccine mandatory in schools and the usual suspects are bitching for the usual reasons.

The press release was bogus, imo, because Camp Trans has neither the right nor the authority to announce policy for the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival; the Fest is quite capable of speaking for itself.

One of the bedrock principles of social justice work is that any oppressed group has the right to define itself, to set its own boundaries, and to meet/organize/socialize with only its own members present. As a wbw, I'd never cross into a space that transwomen have declared is only for transwomen. I'd never cross the boundary that any oppressed group sets for itself, and I want the same kind of respect from others.

"the country’s best 100 campuses for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender students."

I would pick a Canadian university over the best American university for tolerance towards LGBT.

Girls Gone Wild (aka "male privilege on crack") founder Joe Francis pleaded guilty Tuesday to violating federal laws designed to prevent the sexual exploitation of children and was fined $2.1 million.

Still waiting for the rape charges, though. He has to have a victim list in the triple digits, by now.

Gosh, one wonders where you could find enough transgender women to get up a hand of bridge.

Try Portland OR. I had more than enough trans people in my living room three days ago for that.

One of the bedrock principles of social justice work is that any oppressed group has the right to define itself, to set its own boundaries, and to meet/organize/socialize with only its own members present. As a wbw, I'd never cross into a space that transwomen have declared is only for transwomen. I'd never cross the boundary that any oppressed group sets for itself, and I want the same kind of respect from others.

I see, so trans women are simply there own tiny group and not really women? Even while they are "sisters?" Love the consistency. I much prefer an ex-girlfriend who didn't think trannies should be alowed at the MWMF because they were just freaks. That attitude was part of why we broke up, I don't like it at all. But at least she said what she felt instead of hiding it in pseudo-reconciliatory bull shit.

Don, you need to brush up on history, pronto.

(CBS4) After disclosing to her parents that she was pregnant, a 19-year-old Maine girl was allegedly bound with rope and duct tape by the parents, who then allegedly attempted to drive the girl to an abortion clinic in New York on Friday for an emergency abortion, police said.

Hmm, is it possible that neither parent has ever heard of patient consent for medical procedures?

Also, by definition, an elective procedure is not an emergency. [Not clear if the emergency abortion comes from the parents/police or the reporter.]

Duwayne--As a guy I don't think you've got any business commenting on women's issues or the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival. In the first place the festival isn't about who is or isn't a 'woman', it's about those of us who have lived our entire lives under the oppression of what it means, TOTALLY, ENTIRELY and from the day we're born to the day we die as objects of the heteropatriarchy. Unless we fight for it we never have lives of our own and even then what we get is damn little.

Furthermore, the festival is over 90% lesbian so for a few fanatical transfolk to dump on us because we don't want to share one week of the year with them is just pathetic and despicable. On top of that the enforced 'inclusivity' of some of the glbt community is downright incestuous at times. I mean c'mon already, we can't get a frigging week away from the 'community' and we're constantly harrassed and policed by the gender cops who want to tell everyone how to be. This happens all over, not just at Michigan and I can tell you that lesbians are damn tired of it and are beginning to group together to do something about it. Gay men and their groups & organizations are left alone but lesbians can't find a place or do shit on our own without getting policed & 'corrected' about it.

Finally, the few who are involved in 'protesting' the festival are exactly that, a few. On top of that their protest isn't about transwomen at all and most of the people who show up for it aren't transwomen. It's about getting anyone (male) in who 'identifies' at any time of his life as a woman. So they really don't want women to have a say at all about what goes on in their lives but they'd give it over to any f**ker who walks up and says 'oh today I feel like such a girl!!' The majority of transwomen do support the festival and respect our space. We do have ongoing projects that we share together. Don't fall for the con game of these few. They've put together a good dog & pony show but it ain't real, it ain't politics and it sure the heck ain't about equality.

Oh yeah, that press release sure was bogus. CT had no business making announcements for a group they don't represent. Transwomen are not 'expelled' from the festival but troublemakers are and the troublemakers are the ones who go on and lie about why they got booted.

One of the bedrock principles of social justice work is that any oppressed group has the right to define itself, to set its own boundaries, and to meet/organize/socialize with only its own members present.

Crap.

Unless, of course, you're willing to argue that, for example, the AFL's deliberate exclusion of women and blacks was acceptable because it was an organization for white male workers. Or that Israeli discrimination against Arabs is fine because Jews have the right to define their nation as Jewish and anyone who says they shouldn't oppress other groups is clearly anti-Semitic.

As a guy I don't think you've got any business commenting on women's issues or the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival. In the first place the festival isn't about who is or isn't a 'woman', it's about those of us who have lived our entire lives under the oppression of what it means, TOTALLY, ENTIRELY and from the day we're born to the day we die as objects of the heteropatriarchy.

If you're willing to go to that level of bullshit analysis, I can also assert that the original AFL was about the lives of those who were subject to oppression as workers and not as black people or as females, or that Sri Lanka is about people who got shortchanged under British rule because they were Sinhalese.

Finally, the few who are involved in 'protesting' the festival are exactly that, a few.

As opposed to people who use the term "womyn" seriously, who are completely mainstream?

"Transwomen are not 'expelled' from the festival but troublemakers are and the troublemakers are the ones who go on and lie about why they got booted."

Nancy Burkholder was expelled because she was transsexual in 1991. This is a known event. She came back (with others) in 1992 and 1993 in order to educate people on trans issues and was expelled again. So if you think attempting to change an injustice is troublemaking then I guess she was.

It should be noted that this event is part of a lrger history of women's spaces discrinimating against transwomen.

1973, Beth Elliot was forced to leave the stage of the West Coast Lesbian COnference when some attendees found out she was a transwoman.

1977, Sandy Stone was forced to leave the Olivia Record company when a group of women threatened to boycott that company when they found out that sandy was a transwoman.

This was pretty much the situation until the 90's when a transwoman finally said enough.

As for what's "bogus". Bogus is blaiming transwomen for an event that had nothing to do with them. Namely, the person with a penis showering openly in 1999. That person was a transman (tony baretto neto) who had a phalloplasty, but some people prefer to say that it was a transwomen.

it's about those of us who have lived our entire lives under the oppression of what it means, TOTALLY, ENTIRELY and from the day we're born to the day we die as objects of the heteropatriarchy.

But what a weird identity to insist on! I wanna start a special club exclusively for people who weighed between 5 lbs. and 6 lbs. 7 oz. at birth. Cuz you know, we all share some sort of singular, monolithic experience because of that fact, right? And if we don't have our own space, our stories will never be heard! Oh, me!

Hey wait, once we have our own space, this wonderful medium in which to share our experiences as people of a certain birth weight, let's wait until it gains some sort of broad(er) cultural significance, then fill it with all sorts of rhetoric about how we're human, let's go ahead and claim that identity and appropriate it, and then say that we, the humans, need our own space! Let's implicitly cut everyone else off from us and deny their humanity! How can they be mad? It's our identity. Omigawd, this is gonna be soooooo much fun! I'll see you in the woods, y'all! Watch out for bears!

--

The first women's studies professor I ever had walked into the room on the first day of class and proclaimed, "My name is Xxxxxx Xxxxx and I am a womon-born-womon." This sort of thing is destructive. Period.

Incidentally,

One of the bedrock principles of social justice work is that any oppressed group has the right to define itself, to set its own boundaries...

This sort of reasoning is deeply flawed. It presupposes that members of the group doing the self-defining have some pre-existing standing in the group. No one can participate in the process of self-definition without appealing back to some earlier standard according to which they were allowed in. You and those like you have adopted the cultural dominant conception of "women" as your default standard. What you're basically saying is, Women (as defined by the patriarchy) have the right to decide who is a woman (as defined by women). You're excluding transwomen by means of (dare I say it? yes, I do) male privelege that piggybacked its way into your little clique along with the patriarchy's stamp of approval.

Madwomon argues that "Respect for the gender identity of woman-born-woman would not seem too much to ask, especially from those who identify as feminists..."

That isn't a feminist argument, it's an Essentialist one; a horse of a very different colour. It's rooted in the idea that women and men are essentially fundamentally different and that the only way for women to find their own unique expression is to withdraw from male society as much as was possible.

This is not a progressive idea, the suggestion that what makes certain groups of people the way they are (for example, women, blacks, Jews), are the political-philosophical constructs of conservatism. The history of essentialist argument is one of oppressors telling the oppressed to accept their lot in life because "that's just the way it is." So, for instance, by buying into the idea that women are the only non-aggressive, nurturing and life giving gender essentialists end up supporting patriarchal assumptions that kept women oppressed.

Ironically, essentialism is a specifically anti-feminist philosophy.

So what's Feminism and progressive idealogy got to do with it ?

I don't really have enough info on the Michigan festival to comment specifically on that, but it seems the argument made in the comments is the opposite of essentialism. Freeda seems to be saying that it's the experience of being oppressed in a patriachal society that's defining the group she's trying to define, not some sort of inborn quality.

So that someone who grows up being able to take advantage of male privilege is different due to how he's been treated by society, and how that interaction has affected his worldview, again not due to some sort of inborn quality.

Duwayne--As a guy I don't think you've got any business commenting on women's issues or the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival.

Of course not. God forbid I should stick my ugly little head into a discussion about womyn's issues. Would you like me to refrain from any kind of action ivolving womyn's rights at all? Hey, I'm not gay either - does that mean I should shut the fuck up about GLBT issues all together and stop involving myself in political action on the front too? Let's see, I'm also caucasian - I geuss I need to drop racial issues from my list of hotbutton topics that piss me off. Cor, just realized that being celibate means I should drop sexual health related issues too. Throw in the fact I no longer smoke pot or use any other illicit drugs - stopping me from dealing with that too and I have no dometic political issues left to rant about.

I have no direct interest in any of the issues I get involved in. I involve myself because I care. I care about my country - and want to see it grow up. I care about people - I want everyone to enjoy freedom and safety in our society. If you think that because I have a penis I should be diqualified from discussing and fighting for women's rights, your just castrating the movement, not me. Thankfully I could care less what you think about my involvment - I will continue to be involved, my lack of uterus be damned.

Freeda seems to be saying that it's the experience of being oppressed in a patriachal society that's defining the group she's trying to define, not some sort of inborn quality.

Are you implying the patriarchy isn't oppressing transgendered people?

No. Just different. I assume that as a white woman I might be slightly more cognizant of the oppression a racial minority faces than a white man might be, but I wouldn't assume that my experience was somehow the same as theirs.

Duwayne--As a guy I don't think you've got any business commenting on women's issues or the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival.

Yes! It would be outrageous to be inclusive in your struggle for inclusivity....

Sheesh...

Duwayne--As a guy I don't think you've got any business commenting on women's issues or the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival.

Yes! It would be outrageous to be inclusive in the struggle for inclusivity...

Sheesh...

oops.. sorry bout the double post...

Oh, and in regards to the appropriateness of my commenting on the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival. I have had "radical" political views all my life, thus I have a lot of friends who are "radicals" of one stripe or another. I also grew up in MI and have had friends on both sides of this specific issue repeatedly drag me into it. Fundementaly I understand where all sides are coming from. It is a difficult prospect balancing inclusion of all women but keeping out every poser who calls himself a woman just to get into women's safe place. I just don't see it as a black/white issue. The opinion I have on this comes from hearing several perspectives from many different women and deciding what made the most sense to me. This does not mean I think, I, or any other man should be allowed anywhere near that safe place.

Thankfully I could care less what you think about my involvment - I will continue to be involved, my lack of uterus be damned.

Congratulations duwayne, you couldn't've stated your position as a true male patriarch any better if you tried. Everyone be d**ned 'cause you're gonna butt in whenever and wherever you want.

For the record, and since your position is so very deeply essentialist, it's not your lack of a uterus that makes your impositions here oppressive, it's your lack of experience or respect in regards to anything that even remotely resembles an upbringing or life lived as a woman.

Being aware and showing concern for others' struggles is very different than sticking your nose in and telling everyone what YOU think they should be doing or critizing what they're doing. Do you also demonstrate the same lack of compassion and the same lack or regard for glbt & racial minority autonomies as you do for here for women or are you just using a phony 'concern' for trans individuals as a mask & front for misogyny? I mean really, do you go around butting in with your two cents worth in others' issues?

Why ignore what I pointed out and that is that these actions overwhelmingly impact lesbians and not women at large? Why ignore that trans individuals have far more rights & power IRL when it comes to using the laws of the land to force lesbians into their way of thinking and lesbians have none? Why ignore that trans activists want to 'expand' the definition of 'woman' (but not of man) to include any male who simply has only to declare himself a woman to be one and thereby access any and all things of, by and for women?

But enough about you already.

Are you implying the patriarchy isn't oppressing transgendered people?

What oppression AL? Transfolk have the laws of the land behind them when they decide to move against women's groups and force 'inclusion' on them. Transfolk have the backing of the medical, legal and educational institutions when it comes to getting what they want. Transfolk can marry legally and I can't. Transfolk have organized all of the power structures to their side in ways that I, or any other lesbians, can't access.

The Michigan Womyn's Music Festival is not representative of anything 'oppressive' to transfolk and as I've said before the majority of them know this and support the festival but their voices are shouted down too and they are called 'auntie toms' and other such bullshit for not supporting a transfacist agenda.

freeda -

Your right, of course. Really I just hate all those upity GLBTs, which is why I am so voracious in my fighting for the rights of GLBTs. I want to highjack the radical agenda for my own nefarious means. MWAH HA HA HA!!

I have spent countless hours at festivals, in parades, at protests and at a host of forums dicussing a variety of GLBT issues. I spend a lot of time simply talking with folks who are directly affected by these various issues - so that I can gain some perspective on them - including a lot of women. And no, I don't do it so I can hang out with "chicks," I do it beause I believe in the things I fight for.

No, I can't claim to know what it is like to grow up as a woman. But to claim I know nothing about it is plain ignorant - you don't know me.

No. Just different. I assume that as a white woman I might be slightly more cognizant of the oppression a racial minority faces than a white man might be, but I wouldn't assume that my experience was somehow the same as theirs.

How is it different? If a transwoman openly identifies as trans, she's in the same position as a Jew in Nazi Germany. If she doesn't, she's no different from a cisgendered woman, oppression-wise.

What oppression AL? Transfolk have the laws of the land behind them when they decide to move against women's groups and force 'inclusion' on them.

Yeah, they do, in the same manner Southern blacks had the law of the land behind them in 1954.

Transfolk have the backing of the medical, legal and educational institutions when it comes to getting what they want. Transfolk can marry legally and I can't. Transfolk have organized all of the power structures to their side in ways that I, or any other lesbians, can't access.

Translation: why, oh, why can't people forget the existence of any other group? Can't you see mine is the only really oppressed one?

Wait, transpeople have the backing of the medical, legal, and educational institutions when it comes to getting what they want? Really? What are you talking about? Could you provide some examples?

Are you actually arguing that transpeople aren't discriminated against? That they don't get bashed? That their jobs aren't in danger? That their medical problems are taken as seriously as those of non-transpeople? That they do not suffer discrimination in courts when it comes to, say, child custody?

As to marriage, transpeople can marry? I'll have to tell my friend, a transwoman and a lesbian in a 17-year-relationship with her female partner. I'm sure they'll both be thrilled.

I understand the idea of having a space for women-born women; certainly the experience of growing up and being socialized as a child to be a girl and then a woman is a powerful one. But on careful consideration, I don't see what is gained from excluding transwomen from any gathering of women. Surely panels and discussions of childhood socialization can be still be held, and transwomen can have considerable insight into these socialization processes. Not all do, of course, but the same is true of women-born women.

"But on careful consideration, I don't see what is gained from excluding transwomen from any gathering of women."

One small thing that is gained is going to the communal showers and knowing that you're not going to see someone with a penis because pre-operative transsexuals have crashed the gates. And mostly what is gained is that people, be they trans or not, respect the boundary that wbw have set and have a right to set.

I've known white people who identify so strongly with the experience of people of color that they say that they feel like a person of color on the inside. Hey, they're identifying so strongly with POC's struggles, what could be the harm in allowing them into a space that is only for people of color? The harm is that people of color have created a boundary that they wish to have respected, as have women-born women.

"But on careful consideration, I don't see what is gained from excluding transwomen from any gathering of women."

WTF is this supposed to mean? What exactly did you 'carefully consider' that led you to this conclusion and what gives you the right (ie, are you female & do you have experience with women-only spaces and/or having said spaces crashed by others who decide that your desires and needs aren't worthy of consideration or respect)?

Having 'shared experiences' doesn't necessarily qualify you or anyone else for membership in a group just because you want or think you deserve to belong. A lot of people in this country can count themselves among generations of families born & raised here but that doesn't make us Native Americans. If I were from several generations of folks native to Arizona that doesn't mean I'd know squid about the Navajo, Hopi or even the Mexican residents with the same histories nor would they know much about mine, except from all of our own perspectives we have about each other. There are great differences among us and those have to be recognized and respected.

Women and transwomen are lightyears apart no matter how much anyone tries to erase our differences or emphasize any 'obtained' similarities.

No, panels and discussions in women's space on women's experiences aren't going to cut it because it requires us to compartmentalize ourselves all over again and to give ourselves over to taking care of others when we want the time and the space for ourselves. I can't validate a transwoman's life or experiences for her nor can I make her feel like a woman by including her in anything. It just doesn't work that way.

Are you actually arguing that transpeople aren't discriminated against? That they don't get bashed? That their jobs aren't in danger? That their medical problems are taken as seriously as those of non-transpeople? That they do not suffer discrimination in courts when it comes to, say, child custody?

What does this have to do with a once-a-year one-week festival in the wood on private land? Women aren't behind these situations and women aren't the ones in power creating these situations but again women are the ones expected to take care of the fallout of this. And in spite of what you say transfolk still have legal rights that have been created/intended for them that lesbians don't so don't try pulling this 'more oppressed than thou' bull.

Hey, madwomon, thanks for your imput on this. beyond the shower situation there's the sense of safety in the woods that can't be had anywhere else on this planet for women. The sense of safety that derives from being among your own people who share much of your values and experiences.

My pleasure, freeda... there are sooo many reasons why wbw space is important...I just stated the obvious...

Here's a website that has some far deeper analysis of the issues than we can get into here--

http://www.questioningtransgender.org/

My pleasure, freeda... there are sooo many reasons why wbw space is important...I just stated the obvious...

Here's a website that has some far deeper analysis of the issues than we can get into here--

http://www.questioningtransgender.org/

Here's a website that has some far deeper analysis of the issues than we can get into here--

Gosh, "12 Trans Myths and Feminist Responses." You know, this kinda reminds me of something I once read somewhere else, humm...

Oh, I know! Let's go and debunk some Homosexual Urban Legends! Way to set up a hateful, authoritative-sounding opposition between "trans" and "feminism." And I love the part about "politics, not people." Kinda reminds me of "hate the sin, not the sinner," you know?

That's offensive and disgusting. You are offensive and disgusting. Transpeople aren't discriminated against? I'm frankly amazed that the responses you've gotten so far have been so civil. Call me a judgmental asshole, call me a "patriarch." But the two of you, MadWomon and freeda, need to either get a clue or get the hell out of public discourse.

squip,

where have I ever said transpeople aren't discriminated against...? or where does the website I cited state that? (I haven't read that in any of the pieces I've read there, but I also don't claim to have read every word.)

That's a diversion tactic, as is your personal attack, and neither works on me.

Nor does your scary "get a clue or get the hell out of public discourse." Gee, I can almost see the snake you're waving as you try to chase me 'round the playground.

Saying that womyn-born-womyn have a right to our own space is apparently a bold statement these days, but I'll stick with it.

peace.

And now I'm slightly more cool-headed. Slightly.

The name of that despicable website says it all: questioning transgender, whatever "transgender" is supposed to mean. The truth comes out at last. It's not just about preserving "womyn-born-womyn" space; it's about "questioning," attacking the validity (for lack of a better term; valid in the sense of deserving consideration as a group, politically, socially, physically, psychically) of trans identity. It's fear, it's bigotry, it's patriarchy-sanctioned essentialism that drives them.

Show me a case, just one, where a transperson (hell, we might as well just say transwoman, since they're the only ones you're concerned about) has done anything to justify your paranoia. Show me a transwoman who masqueraded as a "real" woman so she could corner some poor gal in the bathroom and rape her. Or one who insinuated herself into the society of women, so to speak, to prop up the patriarchy to any greater extent than plenty of other women already do. Show me just one, and maybe I'll consider taking some of your claims as more than just shallow transphobic diatribe. Until then, feel free to go hide in the woods. Just shut up with the hate speech, already.

I feel like a total dork for commenting so many times in such quick succession, particularly at this hour, but my buttons are really getting pushed here.

where have I ever said transpeople aren't discriminated against...?

You didn't, not in so many words. freeda did.

"What oppression AL? Transfolk have the laws of the land behind them when they decide to move against women's groups and force 'inclusion' on them. Transfolk have the backing of the medical, legal and educational institutions when it comes to getting what they want. Transfolk can marry legally and I can't. Transfolk have organized all of the power structures to their side in ways that I, or any other lesbians, can't access."

That's a diversion tactic, as is your personal attack,

Personal attack? You mean where I called you disgusting and offensive? Well maybe it is a personal attack. But since you're disgusting and offensive precisely because of the position you're advocating, I don't think it's fair to call it a "diversion tactic." It's not like I'm discounting your argument solely on the basis of your own personal history, like you did with DuWayne. I'm discounting your argument because it's a bad argument.

Gee, I can almost see the snake you're waving as you try to chase me 'round the playground.

Gee, I really hope that double entendre was unintentional, or I'm about to be even more offended.

Saying that womyn-born-womyn have a right to our own space is apparently a bold statement these days, but I'll stick with it.

Bold? Not really. You have almost the full support of society at large behind you. God knows it's widely acceptable to be freaked out by those creepy trannies, right? No, it's not even a little bit bold, just like it's not particularly bold to say that Islam is the enemy of freedom, or that them gays shouldn't be allowed to get hitched. What all those statements do have in common is that they're all quite remarkably dumb. That's why you're getting so much flack.

peace.

Right back at ya, MadWomon.

Squip--It seems that what we say really, really just scares the hell out of you. so much so that you're reduced to infantile ranting and insults. You're afraid of what we say and you're afraid of others reading and thinking about it. It reminds me so much of how the transgender facists want to control the content & input of any 'discussions' they try to start with radical lesbian/feminists. It's scripted bullshit and you're afraid, so afraid of the day that others will see through it also.

Face it squip. Lesbians are tired of it, aren't putting up with it anymore and your day in the sun is done. Your gig is hitting the skids so give up, grow up and get over it.

Madwomon, I've been to the questioning transgender site numerous times and I also post on the margins & fest bb.

Freeda, the "you are afraid" rhetoric is pure demagoguery. Cut it out. I don't know which blogs you're used to posting on; maybe on Biting Beaver or something the echo chamber is as mind-numbingly essentialist as you'd like, but here, the readers' level of tolerance for bullshit analysis is lower.

I don't know about Squip, but I have no reason to be afraid. Why should I be? Christian fascists are slowly installing a theocracy; radical feminists who can't spell the word "women" properly are a group I fortunately have the privilege of ignoring, simply because it's too fringe to hurt me. They can hurt some trans people, which is why I pay them any sort of attention, but even so, I'm pretty sure discriminatory Womyn's Festivals are less of a problem for transgendered people than hate crimes, lackluster enforcement of equal rights, and severe discrimination.

And in spite of what you say transfolk still have legal rights that have been created/intended for them that lesbians don't so don't try pulling this 'more oppressed than thou' bull.

You're the only one here who's pulling that crap. Squip and I are contending that there's severe oppression going on against transgendered people; the equivalent statement on your side, that there's oppression against lesbians, is something that is, I hope, universally understood on this blog.

I've known white people who identify so strongly with the experience of people of color that they say that they feel like a person of color on the inside. Hey, they're identifying so strongly with POC's struggles, what could be the harm in allowing them into a space that is only for people of color?

Indeed, what harm? I've yet to see anyone point out to one historical example of ethnic self-segregation leading to greater social freedom and equality. After Romania became independent, it did its best to deny Russians minority rights; after Israel became independent, it started a decades-long campaign of oppression against Arabs; after Sri Lanka became independent, Sinhala populists started subjugated the previously privileged Tamils.

The only reason radical feminists haven't done damage on these scales is that it's practically impossible to have segregation based on such non-inheritable traits as gender.

Let me tell you about my day in the sun, freeda.

In school, I was picked on mercilessly. Most of my memories of elementary school are of being beaten up by one or another bully. Gee golly was I a little sissy fagpants back then. Good thing I had the transfascist establishment to protect me, right? Oh no, wait...

Ditto high school. In high school, I had long hair. I didn't chase girls. This, I was told, was the reason several parents "expressed concern" to the vice principal that I was planning on coming into school one day with a backpack full of guns and explosives. Mind you, this was the year after Columbine, and tensions were high; I was an easy target, they told me, only after a full year of being pulled out of class, of psychological evaluations, of threats of expulsion for doing absolutely nothing. But the transfascists didn't step in then, either.

After high school, when I started transitioning, I had to jump through all the insulting, degrading, dehumanizing hoops that the medical establishment (you know, that one that's on our side) requires all us confused little trannies to go through to justify our existence. Have you ever had to see a therapist before getting a gynecological examination, just so they're really *sure* you're a woman?

When I went to college they didn't know what to do with me. They stuck me in a room with two guys who made my life a living hell until the housing people finally decided to relent, to have mercy on me and allow me the privelege of paying them extra for a single room.

I have a girlfriend now. I'm sure you'll be greatly comforted to know that I'm not forcing myself on a "real" woman - she's a trannie too. We can't get married either. Shocking, right?

Let's skip back in time now, for dramatic effect. A little while after I started transitioning I officially came out to my family. I have two moms and a dad. The former are married to each other. One of them practically disowned me, because she buys into the hateful rhetoric you so brazenly spew.

freeda, you're absolutely right. I am really, really afraid of what you're saying. I have good reason to be. It's hurt me personally, and it's hurt people I know and love.

But I'm also really, really angry about what you're saying. I want to scream at the top of my lungs.

But gosh darnit, wouldn't you know, my day in the sun is over. The gig is up. I've had 20 good years of oppressing women as a member of the transfascist establishment, and now my best days are behind me. All the real feminists have seen through my lies, and I won't be able to bully them any longer.

Sorry for wasting your precious time.

squip -

I'm sorry that a couple of very obnoxious folks have slammed you down the way the two above have. Just keep in mind where the discourse has come and what it says about them - or at least freeda. When people start screaming fascist about people who are not in fact trying to form/take over a government, basing it on nationalistic furvor, rooting it in religion and giving it over to corporations to run - they are quite obviously not worth the anger or the time.

To the best of my knowledge (and various search engines’ knowledge), Biting Beaver has never taken a position on trans-inclusion in women’s space or on the music festival for that matter. I read her blog fairly regularly and occasionally post over there, too.

By the way, I too am a transwoman.

I think squip brought up a very good point: the festival’s policy regarding transpeople is backed up by society’s general attitudes about transpeople. That is, folks tend to see transwomen as “sort of� women and transmen as “sort of� men. Full acceptance does happen among non-trans people, but those people tend to be a minority. Even some of my closest friends—mostly those who first met me when I wore a male body—occasionally manifest small amounts of prejudice in this direction.

The common prejudice that ascribes an “inbetween� social status to transpeople is reflected in the law just as it is reflected in the public’s attitudes. Sometimes we are legally recognized as our true gender and sometimes we are not. This varies from being legally barred from using bathrooms that match our gender to transwomen being imprisoned with male prisoners. Some states recognize transpeople’s gender as being legally protected against discrimination just as cisgender people’s gender is. Some do not. Protection against gender discrimination for transpeople can shift by simply moving into a neighboring state.

Regardless of claims to the contrary, the reality is this: the music festival embraces and supports a policy that propagates the prejudices of society at large. People who support this policy usually make statements that claim that they recognize transwomen as women, but that they aren’t the kind of women who should be allowed into women’s space. This attitude is very reflective of the “inbetween� status that transpeople live under at the behest of society and it’s general prejudices regarding us. It may seem like a progressive policy to some feminists, but it supports a long history of discrimination.

Yes, the policy can be easily rationalized through feminist theory. However, it’s possible to bend many different kinds of theory—even a body of theory whose heart and spirit is based in freedom and liberation—into something ugly and hateful. Hate and prejudice know no boundaries.

We've gone on a ways since I last posted, but since some quite hostile personal questions were leveled at me:

"What exactly did you 'carefully consider' that led you to this conclusion"

Well, I've been thinking about feminism, women-born women, and transwomen for several years now, reading various feminist and transrights perspectives on the issues, and talking to feminists and some transwomen. I started out by being on the side of excluding transwomen and I came to the conclusion that that was an unacceptable position. That's what I mean by careful consideration.

"and what gives you the right (ie, are you female & do you have experience with women-only spaces and/or having said spaces crashed by others who decide that your desires and needs aren't worthy of consideration or respect)?"

Yes. I am a woman, I do have experience with women-only spaces, and I do have experience with having those spaces crashed. As you would know if you ever read this blog before, instead of just showing up to harangue as regarding this post.

"What does this [institutionalized discrimination against transwomen] have to do with a once-a-year one-week festival in the wood on private land? "

I haven't a clue, freeda. You're the one who claimed that transpeople have establishment backing and aren't discriminated against. You seemed to think it was relevant before I and Alon pointed out that you were, y'know, wrong.

And a question for those of us who aren't freeda and madwomon:

Does this fixation on the communal showers remind anyone else of the gays-in-the-military canard of "What if real men have to shower with those icky gays?"

A 19-year-old woman in Maine was kidnapped by her parents and nearly forced to have an aborion.

A link to a later story reveals that the woman's boyfriend is black and her parents objected to her having a biracial baby. Their attorney suggests that things are not as "serious" as they may seem at first blush though the parents are accused of threatening to kill the boyfriend and his family in addition to trying to coerce their daughter into having an abortion.

Indeed, what harm? I've yet to see anyone point out to one historical example of ethnic self-segregation leading to greater social freedom and equality. After Romania became independent, it did its best to deny Russians minority rights; after Israel became independent, it started a decades-long campaign of oppression against Arabs; after Sri Lanka became independent, Sinhala populists started subjugated the previously privileged Tamils.
The only reason radical feminists haven't done damage on these scales is that it's practically impossible to have segregation based on such non-inheritable traits as gender.

By your reckoning then all Native American reservations should be shut down and it's members thrown in the society at large cause, gosh darn it, it just ain't good for them to self-segragate along such non-inheritable traits as tribal membership. Just look at how poorly they've done all on their own, why gosh we should just step in and tell them how to do it right, right AL?

Well AL it seems your memory and your examples are very selective and very self-serving. Always the hallmark of an open mind, right?

Go out and take a long, hard look at the world and then try to tell me that's it's impossible to segregate on a 'non-inheirtable trait such as gender.' The world is full of it, from this country where women still earn less than men and suffer far more social restrictions & injustices to the women of Darfu and the Sudan who are raped repeatedly and then rejected and/or killed by their own families for it to the young girls kidnapped and sold into prostitution all over the damn place. The world is full of this 'gender segration' that you claim can't exist. You just refuse to see it because it doesn't to you and it serves your purpose here and now to deny it.

Radical feminist don't self-segregate in order to oppress mtfs or anyone else. That's what men do. What little self-segrating we do is for our own good and that's what men like yourselves can't tolerate. You can't tolerate women turning their backs on you and taking care of themselves. That is what the festival is about, it's not about men and it's not about transfolk, it's about us and that alone is what drives you to the point of rabidity.

FTR, I never said that transfolk aren't discriminated against, go back and reread my posts and stop interjecting self-serving lies.

Does this fixation on the communal showers remind anyone else of the gays-in-the-military canard of "What if real men have to shower with those icky gays?"

Why call that a fixation EG? What you've written is disrespectful & derogatory so don't try to sit a high horse and look down on us. If you have, as you claim, experience with women's spaces then you'd know better than to write what you have.

Freeda - I would tend to argue that you have been disrespectful and derogatory.

Lets see now. You have told me in no uncertain terms that I am not a supporter of anything I support and if I really were I would just sit in the back and shut the fuck up. Apparently it's ok to be supportive but not to have an opinion about what your supporting - according to you. Never mind that I have often been asked my opinion on not only this subject, but many more that do not effect me directly.

You have accused a signifigant portion of the transgender community fascists - which really jut gauges the maturity of your rhetoric.

You have flat out attempt to marginalize squip and her opinions and are an absolute shit in the way you go about it.

You also try to marginalize the entire transgender communitie's struggle for acceptance in a society that is far from remotely accepting them. Trying to claim how many advantages they have over lesbians.

To be clear on that last point. I have a lot of friends who are trans people. Over and over I hear about how not only does society at large frown upon them, not only do huge portions of the GLB communities frown upon them, but their closest friends often marginalize who and what they are as well.

"Does this fixation on the communal showers remind anyone else of the gays-in-the-military canard of 'What if real men have to shower with those icky gays?'"

I'm not sure how offering up one example constitutes a 'fixation,' but I think your comment would only be relevant if gay men and lesbians historically committed 95% of sexual assaults against others. Although 95% of men are NOT sexual assaulters, it is true that 95% of sexual assaults against women are committed by men, and that's one of the main reasons we'd like one week of the year at just one festival out of hundreds where we can be free from that particular concern.

Again, like much of the populace, you conflate transwomen with men. How many sexual assaults are perpetrated by transwomen? How often does one hear of women being raped or assaulted by transwomen? Given how hated we tend to be, I’d bet that would wind up plastered all over the newspapers.

I live in fear of rape. When I walk to my car alone at night, I worry about who might be hiding in the shadows. When I hike in the mountains alone, my heart wind ups in my throat each time I pass male hikers. When I’m working alone in my office at night, I do so with the distraction of fear. When I make a new friendship with a guy, I wonder how safe it is to hang out with him alone.

On a visceral level, I understand the fear of sexual assault. It shapes and constrains my movement in this society. It colors my daily interactions with men in ways that leave a tension just beneath the surface. Add to this the fact that I grew up with the torment of physical and emotional abuse by my male peers. The tensions I feel intertwine with very old memories.

To imply that I’d perpetrate this violence upon another woman sickens me. To imply that I present the same threat to other women that men do saddens and angers me.

Here’s a little experiment: try doing a Google search for the words transsexual and sexual assault. How many of those results are accounts of stories in which women were assaulted by transwomen? How many results are accounts of transpeople themselves being assaulted?

And here’s a statistic to consider:
“The preliminary data of transgendered and intersexed individuals gathered by the Gender, Violence and Resource Access Survey found that 50% of respondents had been raped or assaulted by a romantic partner (Courvant and Cook-Daniels, 1998).�
(see: http://my.execpc.com/~dmmunson/Nov99_7.htm)

Sorry. The first link didn't work. Try this:
http://my.execpc.com/~dmmunson/Nov99_7.htm

See if you can wrap your heard around this duwayne, none of this discussion is about you. So get over yourself. I've known white guys like you all thru my life and it's always been about how they see themselves as being 'cool' and 'with it' and they support these self-delusions with statements like 'I'm friends with lotsa______s. Whatever you want to fill in the blank with. You can't even deal with anything I've written so you resort to some inarticulate, unimpressive slander.

Stacy, I fail to see why you think posting all the grievances of mtfs has anything to do with a women's festival in the woods. Michfest isn't about the world at large and, in spite of what you and others think, lesbians don't go there to learn how to hate on you or men or anyone else. It's all about us and no one else, we sing, we dance, we play drums, we do lotsa things with each other without a thought to the outside world. Changing or getting rid of that ain't gonna change a damn thing in your world because we(women) don't have the impact that you accuse us of having.

FTR, I was attacked by a 'trangender' male-bodied person. Now whether or not he was pre- post-or non-op I don't know because it didn't get that far. What the fucker did was to grab me by the back of the neck & shove my face into his crotch while yelling "Now we'll see who's the real woman here!" Prisons are now having to deal with men who 'transition' and go on to attack women prisoners that they're assigned with. There's lotsa stories out there Stacy, there's just not the stastics yet, so don't go saying that mtfs don't assault women cause it happens and it isn't rare.