oh LORD dont i know about stuff like that. being a fetish model (which really just means soft core artistic nudity and wearing latex, or to me anyway) and being a women who likes wearing far out make up and clothes (which somtimes includes heels, gasp!) i have gotten my fair share of hate from other feminists. funny enough the majority of them that said i couldnt possibly be a feminist were male, and once the female feminists got to know me, we became freinds (happened 3 times!). but some are no diffrent from the far right with there "my way or the highway" attidude and close mindedness

This is absolutely maddening. Jeez, Jess, didn't you get the memo that you have to be UGLY to call yourself a feminist or be taken seriously? Better start shopping at Dress Barn and eating only fried foods if you want some respect.

It's depressing that we seem to get this shit from older women just as often as from men.

Whoah! I'd be pissed too - very pissed. Eeeewch! Maybe eventually one day they will just GROW UP!

don't worry about it too much. they're making themselves look stupid, and you're getting links. you win!

I am feeling faint from a combination of anger, sadness and tired astonishment. We must not slip into this ancient tarpit of suffocating criticism. It is shallow and tells others of the writers unexamined life.

It says nothing about you! It says nothing about your passion, your depth, your dedication to freeing women and men from the imbalance of sexism.

There are people who matter in your life and these empty headed remarks tell you; 1)you are on the right track, 2)the struggle is in full gear and 3)we will never run out of things to do.

I am proud of you and I believe that Bill was lucky to have met you.

I have to say, reading Althouse's original post on the picture, you do stand out. You're dressed less conservatively and appear to be posing (as opposed to standing casually). There is certainly nothing wrong with either, but it is striking in the photo.

As for the more recent post, it's pretty clear you've set off an Althouse hot button issue. She has repeatedly mentioned her distaste for Clinton and her dismay at how women seem to love him despite his infidelity and objectification of woman in inferior roles.

Add to that your classic angry young feminist rhetoric ("How dare you judge me by my looks?") and you've hit another Althouse button.

That said, I don't know that it's fair to razz you about posing in a Clinton photo-op. Some people, when photographed, just pose. They're the ones people always call "photogenic."

I don't especially like Bill Clinton.

I would still pose with Bill Clinton.

But it'd be a much bigger honor for me to pose with Jessica Valenti.

The thread pisses me off, too. There is a line between standing up for one's values and just being nasty. They have SO crossed that line.

Cheers,

TH

Arseh*le's got a problem with you standing at a non-orthogonal angle to the lens. It would be OK if you were facing the camera, with your shoulders forming a "T" with its line-of-sight. Soldiers pose like that. It would be OK if you were in profile, provided you weren't smiling.

No smiling!!

But this forty-five degree business... this, and Darwinism, are the reason that The West has fallen into such limp-wristed desuetude that Islamofascists are emboldened to terror-bomb our fair cities. When they take over and force you to wear a burkha, it'll only be your own fault.

Say, you've got pretty hair!

And I don't see a blooming thing wrong with Jessica's pose in the photo, by the way. I can see how someone might find humor in the fact that the noticeably attractive dark-haired young woman happens to be the one standing next to Bill, given his history, but they carried it about ten notches past anything resembling lighthearted humor.

Cheers,

TH

When I saw the group photo the other day I didn't assume you were posing.. I thought you were standing to the side so as to not block the President.

And don't sweat the ridiculous comments. The internet is 33% porn, 66% flames, and 1% "other."

Regardless of my feelings about Clinton and that all-white photo-op, what happened at the Althouse blog was inexcusable. Jessica, next time you take a picture, make sure you're full-on facing the camera, so we don't get a boobie profile shot, mmkay?

Plenty of other bloggers were posed in the exact same position--creepy John Aravosis (who most certainly would give Bill a bj if it would boost his hits), the older lady with the blazer & glasses, the blonde woman with the black & white dress--but they got a pass.

It angers me most that Ann not only allowed those comments on her blog without even a mild reprimand, but she even took up for them.

"the noticeably" --> "a noticeably." I didn't really look hard at the rest of the photo, so this should not be taken as a commentary on anybody's looks.* Including Jessica's, for that matter.

Cheers,

TH

* I had been told in very harsh terms that it was bad to say anything positive about feminist women's looks. Then I apparently alienated and hurt the feelings of a very prominent and credentialed young professional feminist activist by not joining a chorus of young men describing one of her photos as "sexy." I am learning that this is one of those cases where one should do whatever seems best at the time and apologize if it sounds stupid, rather than working really hard in advance to say the right thing.

I must be really bored or tired to feel compelled to defend the pic, but here goes:

I doubt Jess thought much about posing. It looks like she did the 3/4 turn to fit in with the woman behind you. The group was three deep instead of two at that point and the woman in red is leaning in to be seen.

Ann just started a new thread over there. She seems very proud of herself for what she said. From her condescending attitude toward those who went, I get the impression that she only wants to hear the voices of those she agrees with.

Clinton has his faults and some women would be right to condemn his behavior over the years. But the man understands the media and the electorate on a lever few ever did; and as one of four of living people to be U.S. president, understands the world on a lever most of us can't fathom. I'd have gone to the luncheon in a heartbeat just to hear what he had to say.

Way to go Jessica!

Althouse just posted in defense of Jessica. Good on her.

Re the 3/4 turn: I am most definitely not cute, and I do that automatically whenever anyone pulls out a camera. It just makes for a better picture.

Cheers,

TH

Althouse is an idiot that uses whatever (whoever) she can as an axe to bludgeon her pet causes which are usually all about:

I am a true XXX the other people that claim to be XXX are all wrong.

In this case, XXX is any element of (Democrat, Blogger, Feminist). Throw in a case of the She Really Hates Hillary and you've got 98% of her psyche.

What she has posted is a very small picture -- yet count how many of her commenters are claiming that Clinton was leering at you.

Seems to be that in a group photo it is common for people to pose their bodies so that they face inward.

But I think you are accurate, you needed to slouch and otherwise make sure you didn't stand out when you were POSING WITH THE BIG DOG HIMSELF in the one chance you mayever get.

Check out her comments about Thelma and Loiuse, shot 16 years ago (when Althouse was 41) Feminism dare not change ever! In addition to Feminism not daring to ever ever change, take a look her critique of the mud flaps in Thelma & Louise in the script she links to. THERE IS NO CRITIQUE IN THERE. The word mud flaps appears three times and is used only as an identifier on a truck.

Althouse, really is, pardon the expression, a piece of shit. It is all the more sad that she probably does represent the finest legal minds in our country.

Althouse of course doesn't understand what your chrome mud flap women are doing with their hands.

Christ, Pierpont. I don't agree with Althouse on very much, but that's as nasty and harsh as anything that was said in the Clinton thread.

Peace,

TH

According to someone on Althouse, Tom and I and the rest of the guys on here are just trying to pick up lefty chicks, which Jeesica apparently encourages by dressing like that. We are just a bunch of sex crazed maniacs surfing feministing!

As a former student of Ann Althouse, and a practicing attorney, I assure you that no one considers her among our finest legal minds.

Wow, yeah, now there's a post about how we're boob-obsessed because of the logo (doesn't anyone get irony anymore) and because of two pics on the site that feature shirts with--gasp!--breasts in them. Did folks forget that girls have boobs? This is just too fucking depressing.

Wow. I've just been flamed by Althouse. That's like posing with Bill Clinton!

Cheers,

TH

Did folks forget that girls have boobs?

But isn't that part of what feminism was all about? "Stop objectifiying us. We have minds. We can contribute, too." Right?

Well tRJ, what should we do when showing a tshirt? Strap our breasts down so you remember we have minds?

I still don't see what the big deal would be if you did dress "sexy." Why does it friggin' matter? Are you supposed to live your life based around the futile hope that anti-feminists will look at a photo of you and not judge you as a sex object?

Feminism is supposed to be about empowering women, not simply giving them more convoluted ways to submit to men. Give me a friggin' break, Althouse.

Cheers,

TH

Jessica, don't get me wrong. I have no problem with breasts. In fact, I love them. And I love women who aren't afraid to be smart, strong and tough while still embracing their sexuality.

But there is something odd about advertising tanks that attract attention to the breasts (in both cut and print), when everything else on this site is such rabid feminist thought.

I don't really see how rabid feminist thought is at odds with women wearing tank tops.

Well, obviously.

I think saying that women can't wear tank tops is contrary to feminist thought. I mean, by that logic, the Taliban laws mandating the burqa would be an example of rabid feminism.

Cheers,

TH

I have not kept up with the "feminist movement" or its various waves--I stopped following after Karen DeCrow became NOW President and the radicals took over and expelled the Betty Friedans..(mid 1970s)--I have found this thread and the Althouse thread interesting and I think what I am seeing is a severe generational gap in one's perceptions about what is modern feminism--and why shouldnt that be a normal thing--dont ideas evolve over time?

Perhaps this comment comes a little too late, but after reading the thread on Althouse, I'm so enraged I had to take a lap around the office and cool off. If there's one thing I cannot deal with- it's women marginalizing and demoralizing other women over things that are of little/no importance (read: posing for pictures, having breasts while being female (!), and clothing choice). Sometimes, I feel like we, females, are our own worst enemy. It's so disheartening.

Jessica,

This whole back-and-forth is fascinating, bizarre, and depressing. But at least to me, you appear sensible and surprising respectful of the people launching this baseless ad hominem attack on you. The Althouse crowd sounds... well, dumbf*ck crazy.

Don't let this ruin your weekend. You have a lot to be proud of and more important foes to focus on than those fools.

Trackback's being uncooperative, but here's my post on Althouse's serial attacks on feminists:

Who Killed Feminism?

What do people mean when they use the term "rabid feminist thought"? When I hear the word rabid I think of that mad dog that Atticus Finch had to shoot in To Kill a Mockingbird.

Does feminist thought become rabid when it is so woman-centered that it doesn't really give a damn what a bunch of nay-sayers think? Is it rabid when it says things that make men and the mainstream uncomfortable? Is it rabid when it sticks up for women instead of the status quo?

Or do people use the word "rabid" to describe feminist thought when it is so threatening to them that they want to shoot it down like a dog in the street? Anyone care to tackle this one?

I don't consider Althouse a feminist, and I don't consider her critique a feminist critique. She is basically making an argument grounded in mainstream right-wing punditocracy, and no matter how she presents herself the rest of the time, that's the framework she's operating from here.

Do not make the mistake of assuming that this is a second-wave versus first-wave issue. She is objectifying Jessica, and enticing her crowd of adoring male right-wing blog commenters to objectify Jessica, in exactly the same way that subway catcallers might. There's nothing remotely feminist about that.

Cheers,

TH

oh, the horror! the horror! please stop this. or at least stop commenting about what feminists wear. talk of the inappropriateness of The Feedback on jessica's appearance - yes. so-called 'analysis' (intended as solidarity or otherwise) about jessica's pose, clothes, or breasts - um, hell no. she thinks, she writes, she goes to lunches. that is all.

Kactus: When I used the term "rabid feminist thought" I was speaking specifically of the angry, knee jerk commentary so frequently offered here.

Any thought that doesn't conform is "bullshit." Anything that comes close to demeaning women is evil. But turning the table on men is somehow desirable. The effect is that feminism is no longer about equality, but absolute superiority.

tRJ, using the term "rabid feminist thought" is just a fancy way of dismissing it.

Uh, yeah, tRJ, that must be it.

Personally, I feel much better now that these clowns have so clearly established that this is the same run of the mill right-wing antifeminist bullshit we've all been hearing since day one.

Idiots.

Pierpont, I'm sorry I objected to your tone. That's the last time I back up Althouse on anything.

Cheers,

TH

Well, Kaktus, I don't think it's all that fancy. But it is indeed dismissive. There's feminist thought worth considering and then there's reactionary nonsense that devolves into a parody of itself. I see no problem dismissing the latter, as it contributes little and ultimately detracts from the the original goals of the movement.

TomHead has it right. Jessica lives, breathes, wears clothes, and eats food. It's shocking, really, to find a woman acting... human.

"According to someone on Althouse, Tom and I and the rest of the guys on here are just trying to pick up lefty chicks, which Jeesica apparently encourages by dressing like that. We are just a bunch of sex crazed maniacs surfing feministing!" - bear

I think we can all agree that Tom is not as sex crazed maniac.

I'd be mad as hell, too, Jessica. I'm pretty chagrined at the commenting over there as well. Sad that it got so personal. |T| supports you.

I think we can all agree that Tom is not as sex crazed maniac.

I would really have appreciated also being cleared in that statement. Can't a guy get any respect?

Y'all have a great weekend. I'm heading out to Austin City Limits Fest.

"I don't especially like Bill Clinton.

I would still pose with Bill Clinton.

But it'd be a much bigger honor for me to pose with Jessica Valenti." - Tom Head

Although... Nah.

It might be mildly amusing to a casual observer that the one young woman in the picture happens to be right in front of Bill Clinton. I don't know, that I can get, but making fun of the way you stand or pose for pictures is ridiculous.

Reading Ann Althouse's comment thread, I'm pretty sure she's an idiot. I mean, she just calls anyone who disagrees with her stupid without even trying to actually argue with them.

How dare you, Jessica. How dare you.

I find it highly inconsiderate and inappropriate for you to stand at a slight angle and smile while having your picture taken. The scandal of it all! And to make it all the more lewd and lascivious by deciding to bring your breasts to the event. For shame. For future presidential meetings, I would consider bringing one of those John Ashcroft drapes to adorn for the photo op so no one gets the wrong idea.

(Seriously, what is WRONG with people?)

BTW, what's with Althouses constant insistence that Clinton was a sexual Harrasser. I didn't follow the Lewinsky case that closely, but I was under the impression that they had a consensual sexual affair.

It's pretty disgusting that feminism is so beautifully dismanteling itself, isn't it?
Don't let the idiots on the web anger you, Jessica. Step away from the computer and realize that there are a lot more people besides them in the world :-) And I personally had to stare at the picture several times before I saw the big deal.

bear - I was laughing at the “sex maniac” comment because Tom is a virgin. I didn't mean to insinuate anything about you.

thanks to everyone for the supportive comments (here and over there). i'm still kind of shocked that the conversation there continues...mostly about my breasts and how inappropriate it is that we have an ad for a shirt (with breasts in it!) on the site.

Noname, thanks for this. I find the whole "sex maniac" thing amusing, too. :o)

Jessica, I think what this has shown most of all is what an intellectually vacuous frathouse Althouse's community is, and how much she dries up and blows away when she tries to pass herself off as a feminist.

Kind of ironic, given the claim she was obviously trying to make.

Cheers,

TH

How are you supposed to "move forward as a movement" if you do exactly what you condemn - i.e., advertise yourself as a sexual object? Got hypocricy, baby?

How exactly am I advtertising myself as a sexual object?

Ah. I see someone unlocked the frathouse.

Cheers,

TH

I am totally baffled.
Am I the only one who thinks the image is pretty boring?
Utterly devoid of objectionable content?

Do those idiots have *no* perspective?!

That sucks for you to be the target of such woman-bashing. It's totally out of line. You looked perfectly normal to me.

When does the orgy start? It will take me a few hours to get to NY.

I'm sorry that you're going through this Jessica. Ann Althouse is a fucking asshole. Quote me on that.

How exactly am I advtertising myself as a sexual object?

Gosh, what a difficult question. Let me guess...

By using your boobs to attract attention?

So does this mean Jessica is now an internet sex symbol? Wild.

You mean, by HAVING boobs? What would you like me to do, asshole? Bind them down so you're not distracted?

Gee, I'd hate to see how they'd react if you were wearing, I don't know, something *gasp* SLEEVELESS.

How do these people find an audience? Seriously.

Cheers,

TH

Apparently, Jessica, if you don't dress up as a man, no one will ever take you seriously. So binding would be a start, but some fake facial hair would really satisfy Althouse frathouse and qualify you for "serious blogger" status.

Althouse does in fact support gender equity in this one degree: there is nothing she likes better than engaging in a dick fight with another blogger.

No, then she'd be an unattractive hairy feminist, see. That's the catch-22. The only reason Althouse isn't judged by the same standard is because she toes the patriarchal line.

Cheers,

TH

The other part of Althouse always good for a giggle is how she is always tut-tutting about the nasty nasty commenters at Eschaton, and LGF, and now at Feministing.

We can all breathe a sigh of relief that Althouse' own stable contains no muck and is a model of decorum, tact, and ideas. She sets such a fine example.

Oh, for the love of....

As a photographer, I'm thrilled when someone actually knows how to pose themselves, then they don't whine about how horrible they look in group photos and refuse to ever have their picture taken again.

Seriously though, this sort of thing is a common technique of anti-feminists. They start by saying all feminists are ugly/don't wear make-up/can't dress well. Feminist rebuts. Then jackass says "You suburban nail polish feminists are the worst."

One of the goals of feminism should be to allow a woman to walk down the street wearing any damn thing she pleases without fear of assault or catcalls.

Well, it appears that Ms. Althouse has banned me from her site. It's a shame; I lost the zinger of a post I contributed, which ended with the phrase "...you silly old prude."

Cheers,

TH

What's all the fuss about? I think you've got nice boobs...

it appears that Ms. Althouse has banned me from her site

Yeh, she likes to do that. You have to admit, she beat the old lawyer aphorism: pound on the facts, pound on the law, pound on the table,... She takes it one step further -- silently delete winning arguments.

Ann Althouse brilliantly exemplifies what I like to call 'exclusionary feminism'. It's juvenile, and it's really pathetic. Let her preach to her sorry-ass choir. Jessica, I hope to see YOUR post on the Clinton lunch sometime soon (and the only breasts I want to hear about are of the southern fried chicken variety).

NEWSFLASH: WOMEN HAVE BOOBS.

I, for example, am a woman, and I have boobs. Sometimes this fact becomes visually apparent, since they, you know, define a fairly noticeable portion of how my body is shaped. What are we arguing about again?

(By the way -- I've always liked the ambiguity of the feministing icon's finger-in-air. I can't tell whether it's a Socrates-like pose or is flipping someone off. Maybe both?)

Now I'm all grumpy that I didn't get invited to this luncheon. My snaketail would have taken the heat off everything else, especially if it was slowly crawling towards Bill Clinton.

But seriously, sorry, Jessica, for having to go through this.

But remember, everyone, Ann Althouse is the bestest feminist ever and, like, totally non-partisan, and her current War on Tits is motivated entirely by high-minded, well-placed outrage at the way Jessica is standing in a group photograph, and not, say, the opportunity to take cheap shots at a liberal blog. Because that would be so very, very unlike her.

What? Everyone talking about her boobies and saying how nice they are?

Yeah, that's just awful.

Hi Jessica,

I'm sorry this happened. Althouse is probably just jealous of you. I thought you looked fine in the photo, and look forward to your future posts about the substantive content of the meeting.

I don't really like to say this, but remember that Ms. Althouse is coming up on 60. If she had no personal jealousy towards feminist bloggers half her age, she'd be a remarkable person.

And she doesn't strike me as a remarkable person.

Cheers,

TH

Am I too late? Has everyone been picked up yet?

The whole thing seems to boil down to "How dare you look hot! Real feminists are ugly!"
Um, sure. And then again, what on earth is she doing paying so much attention to boobs, anyway? Come on, you're obviously "posed" just in the way that every photographer tells people in a lineup group like that to pose - turn slightly to the inside so everyone can squoosh together a bit more. Whazzerface Althouse really needs to get a life. And I'm really having difficulty not making outhouse jokes about her last name, but I'm not, see? Because it would be stooping to her level.

Wow, that really puts the punch in "You've come a long way, baby", doesn't it?