"Like most things, immigration is a feminist issue"

Why do you think that is? i've never been exactly sure.

Why is immigration a feminist issue?

The good number, perhaps the majority, of immigrants who do the kind of necessary but long-underpaid gruntwork in America's economy -- from picking food in the field to cleaning hotel rooms -- are women, and often immigrants.

What's more, I believe those women earn a fraction of the money that their male counterparts do, not just in the United States but worldwide.

If anyone can provide exact statistics, just post them here.

'they are coming in huge numbers like no other group before...' No other group hun??? No other group like the maybe the white settlers????? I'm not sure why it still amazes me that white americans continue to have such a sense of entitlement.

What amazes me is the lack of history. Anti-immigrationists have been mouthing the same tired arguments for the past 150 years, and each time, waves of Irish, Jewish, Chinese, whatever people continue to come on in and the sky does not fall. And yet...we get the same damn arguments each damn time, usually bracketed by "But this time, it's really really really different!"

'mexico has a claim on the southwest....our irish ancestors, jewish ancestors, italian ancestors, did not say look this land belongs to us....' Well, Pat thats because the land did not belong to those ancestors...but the Mexicans...yes this land, the southwest, did once belong to the Mexicans.

I feel so sorry for peole who fear words like 'multicultural'. I myself think that it is a beautiful word decscribing the heritage of most americans and the foundation of this country...well, excluding brown people of course...wouldn't want to muddy the waters.

Poverty and globalization are also feminist issues.

The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was the peace treaty that ended the Mexican-American War (1846–1848). Mexico ceded parts of the modern-day states of Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico and Wyoming as well as the whole of California, Nevada, and Utah for 15 million dollars plus $3.25 million in debts Mexico owed.

-cut 'n paste queen nwp

Was he talking about immigrants in general, or illegal immigrants specifically? There's a big difference, and a comment made about one does not automatically include the other.

The article says he means both illegal and legal. He is ignorant about the fact that the southwest belongs to Mexicans and he gets angry when non white people take pride in their cultures.

Besides, how many Mexican-Americans really want to cede the Southwest back to Mexico?

My guess: maybe 5%, just enough to give the racists political cover.

I live in Colodado where every single day there's a arcticle about illegal immigrants. The men (even if they are native born) treat the women like crap. Just the other day my mother and I overheard a Mexican (very thick accent,) yelling at his wife for forgetting to pack his lunch, yelling at her for not answering the phone and to come give him his lunch. Obviously we all know how badly Mexico treats it's women. The concern revolves around the lack of assimilation by Mexicans. How can our women friendly(or at least aspiring to be) society going to influence these people when they feel they are above Americans. How can we instill feminism into our society, when a certain group of people feel excempt from this nation. I walk into the Wal-Mart and it is segregated, everything is in spanish, and english-what if your from India-I assume you would not feel such an entitled expectation that everyone accomadate you, and feelings that you are excempt from what every other American goes through. My University (along with 90% of the high schools and colleges in the southwest) have a Mecha, whose motto is 'everything for the race.Everything outside the race, nothing.' So that means everyone not Mexican. As far as Mexico once owning the land-we won it fair and square- through a war. Prior to Americans coming over, the Aztecs used to assault the native American indians, as well as there own neighboring tribes. That is how Hernan Cortez was able to gather information about the aztecs to defeat them-the neighboring tribes willingly obliged as they were tired of the raids in which there own people would be mercilessly sacrificed to the Aztec god Quetzalcoatl. For the opening of one of the Aztecs new pyramids the murder rate was estimated to be the same daily murder rate at Auschwitz. Nonwhiteperson (I'm as happy about you not being white as you apparently are about not being it) is an example of the mass delusion surrounding much of the hispanics concerning their own history. I can name alot more, particularly Mexicos xenophobia torwards the Chinese who come there,(they are rascist torwards the Chinese) as well as the fact that these people who seem to tell us how to do 'immigration' have the lowest acceptance rate for anyone wanting to immigrate to Mexico in the world. Even though it's a third world country.

freewmn,

What is your point?! Because Aztecs fought native Americans that somehow eliminates Mexcican’s entitlement to their ancestral land? What about all the native Americans that whites killed?! Or because people were killed during the building of Aztec pyramids?! Why can’t the same argument be used about Germany for example?!
Since when is winning land through war fair and square?! I think I’d call that stealing.

And are Mexicans are responsible for all or most the misogyny in this country because you heard some Mexican man was yelling at his wife?!
Because rednecks are generally known to be pro-feminist?!
In fact Mexicans have been very good with assimilation. By second generation many don’t even speak Spanish.

I mean people from European decent migrated from Europe taking over half of the world. They never had any concern for the cultures of the people who had been living on that land for ever. Why? Because their culture they thought was superior. Now that the flow of population has reversed they are already mourning the loss of their superior culture.

I love that you don’t even try to conceal your racism!

freewomn, every major culture in the world is sexist, at least every one that I'm familiar with. Immigrants to this country have always come from less technologically advanced, progressive cultures, and usually it is the women who end up staying, or wanting to stay, in part because of the greater freedoms they find here. I really don't see anything new or different about this.

Because Aztecs fought native Americans that somehow eliminates Mexcican’s entitlement to their ancestral land?

Aztecs were native Americans.

The concern revolves around the lack of assimilation by Mexicans.

Mexican immigrants assimilate just like Italians, Jews, Germans, and Irishmen did. It's harder to notice because more keep coming all the time, or at least will keep coming until Mexico reverses its boneheaded economic policies, but by the second generation almost all Mexican-Americans speak English better than Spanish.

Anyone starting to have flashbacks to his (hate) speech at the '92 GOP convention in Houston?

"Because their culture they thought was superior. Now that the flow of population has reversed they are already mourning the loss of their superior culture."

Wow, this is really good insight. It's probably assumed by lots of people but I was just impressed by it 'cause I hadn't thought of it from that particular angle before. Cool.

I've written A LOT about the immigration issue (including two debates in a previous feministing post, heh).

viktorfrankl.livejournal.com/tag/immigration

I think that just as people of color know that most white "liberals" are guilty of subconsious racism, most women know that almost all men are guilty of sexism to some degree. Someone yelling at their wife (or whatever the person thinks they witnessed) is a blatant instance of sexism, but to say that Mexican culture is somehow way more sexist than US culture is completely disingenuous, and someone who thinks this is more than likely ignorant of the core ideas behind feminism. Mexican men are sexist assholes, just like white men, just like most men in most major cultures of the world.

Viktor, are you denying that it's possible even in theory for different cultures to have differential levels of progress when it comes to women's rights? I mean, people here generally don't deny that Sweden is less sexist than the US, for instance.

He is ignorant about the fact that the southwest belongs to Mexicans

No, it doesn't. If you want to start talking this way, then own up to the fact that it belongs to the Indios -- the indigenous ethnic group that remains, to this day, exploited by the descendants of Spanish colonists.

Why is it that when people start harping on "white settlers" taking land from "Mexicans", they always forget that "Mexicans" -- meaning, the socioeconomic demographic IN CONTROL of that country's land and resources -- are just as much SETTLERS as the white folks? Boot one out, boot them both out. Oh wait, that's right -- we're all intermixed now. That must be a shame for you, WCGoddess, and also for Buchanan, and for any other people who want to say the land "belongs" to one specific group.

/endrant

Also, whites didn't colonize America and kill or marginalize the natives who didn't succumb to disease because they thought their culture was superior. They did it because they wanted more territory and natural resources, and were strong enough to get it. If the conquistadores had been driven out of America, Europe would have never developed its superiority complex.

The flip side of "The West won the world not because of the superiority of its values or ideas or religion, to which few converted, but because of its superiority in applying organized violence" is that Europeans weren't more violent or belligerent than other cultures - they just happened to be better at it.

hell yeah this land belongs to american indians. they were forced onto reservations and are the poorest group with the most social problems. manifest destiny was willed by god just like this harebrained war on terror/armageddon we're in right now.

My University (along with 90% of the high schools and colleges in the southwest) have a Mecha, whose motto is 'everything for the race. Everything outside the race, nothing.' So that means everyone not Mexican. As far as Mexico once owning the land-we won it fair and square- through a war.

A bunch of rebels in northern Texas revolted against Mexico's new centralist government in 1835 and this group declared its independence in 1836. Mexicans figured this rebellious republic would be reclaimed one day. Reminds me rebellious groups fighting in Iraq. In 1845, the US voted to take over this republic and sent troops to the rio grande which was part of Mexico to protect this new border with Mexico. Clashes between Mexican and US troops provided rationale for the Mexican-American War. The US marched through Mexico and captured Mexico City in 1847. Reminds me of preemptive war in Iraq and planting our new embassy in Baghdad which will be visible from the moon. The Treaty was signed in 1848 in Guadalupe Hidalgo where the Mexican government fled because US troops advanced to Mexico City. Mexico ceded 55% of its land to the US including all of present-day California, New Mexico, Texas and parts of Colorado, Nevada and Utah for 15 million dollars in exchange for war-related damage to Mexican property. Why groups like Mecha exist is like asking, "Why do the Arabs hate us?"

Alon Levy:

I could have worded it better. You are correct, but I want to clarify:

In theory, it is possible. But consider the situation I was referring to, and read their words. I think we can agree that this is the prevalent attitude among non-feminist-oriented people...middle-eastern men oppress their women, good thing we don't! My statement was that anyone with this attitude is seemingly misunderstanding feminist theory, and this subliminal, widely-accepted oppression is the most crucial to bring to light. PLEASE realize that I am NOT trivializing violence against women, at all (or at least I don't mean to....), I am just pointing out the danger of pointing fingers at certain people while women in the liberalest of liberal countries are still suffering from sexism. It's comparable to calling oneself an anti-racist activist for being against the KKK or neo-nazi groups. Yes, they are racists, but we're talking about the everyday racism that non-white people face that doesn't make the news, that is generally accepted by the privileged group, whoever that happens to be in each respective example, who considers itself "liberal."

I do not mean to trivialize the efforts by feminists throughout history who have given certain political rights they have today (you might think my statement points to that because it's seemingly fatalist). But it's definitely important to look at your own community and your own society to see if what it's doing isn't the same thing as what you think Mexicans or Muslims to do women.

Yes indeed Sweden is number one based on women's economic participation, economic opportunity, political empowerment, educational attainment, health and well-being.

1. Sweden 2. Norway 3. Iceland 4. Denmark 5. Finland 6. N. Zealand 7. Canada 8. U.K. 9. Germany 10. Australia 11. Latvia 12. Lithuania 13. France 14. Netherlands 15. Estonia 16. Ireland 17. US

Women's equality may have to do with strength of feminist movements and states' commitment to equality. American women are allowed to talk about feminism but the state does not seem to cooperate. Maybe the governments in the countries above the US are less macho and resistant.

The Gender Gap

Wait a minute--Ireland? Ireland? The same Ireland that only got around to legalizing divorce in the 1990s? Where women still have to travel to England in order to get abortions? Where the last Magdalene Laundry closed in 1996? Ireland? I have heard more disspiriting news about feminist progress in the US, but right now, it's hard to put my finger on exactly what that news was. Damn.

Alon, I have to disagree about the superiority complex developing later, because I've always learned that Europeans felt it was their duty to civilise the rest of the world. Even before actually fighting with the natives of whatever place they'd landed, they began trying to Christianize them, didn't they? I agree with your other comments, though.

A little additional info from my Mexican history class:

Texas was so isolated and so far up north that Mexico couldn't get any of their own people to colonise it, so they opened it up to Americans. The land was practically free, and there was an additional allotment for everyone in the family, including slaves. The plan was that the Americans would learn to speak Spanish, and all be Catholic, but that didn't work out.

Eventually, this became a problem, and the Texans rebelled because they wanted a greater voice in government, and they were upset when Mexico outlawed slavery. So they split off.

Now, here comes the important part. The traditional boundaries of Texas ended at the Nueces River. The United States laid a claim to territory stretching all the way to the Rio Grande, 150 miles south at the coast, all the way up north to its source.

The war started because a group of American soldiers crossed the Nueces River, and the Mexicans defended their territory. Taft told Congress that Americans had been attacked on American soil. (Since Americans have never heard of a war being started on false pretenses before, I'm sure those of you who didn't know this are all shocked.)

How can that not be considered stealing? On the other hand, Mexico could have done a much better job fighting off the Americans if they could have resolved their internal disputes and come together against them. Or they could have given Texas the representation they wanted, and not encouraged slavery in the first place.

We do have a problem with women's rights in Mexico, as was recently posted on Feministing with the murders in Ciudad Juarez. However, in my native Canada, number seven on that list, Robert Pickton managed to kill up to 30 women over a period of years without anyone noticing. A number of the countries on that list have problems with sex trafficking. I wouldn't be pointing any fingers.

Ms Jane posted in the "To Beach or Not to Beach" thread that we shouldn't toss out the word racist, and she made a lot of good points, so I won't use it. But I honestly think that freewmn has proven herself to be rather suspicious of other cultures and their threat. From what she's written in her posts, she seems to hold the view that "white" countries can become more egalitarian, but ones with coloured people like Mexicans or Muslims can't, and that when such racial groups immigrate to "white" countries, they set the new country's efforts at equality back.

But that's just what I've gathered from a few internet posts. I could be completely wrong.

You just reminded me that the United States was founded on the idea that it was the "city upon the hill" and the "beacon to the world". Bush's speechwriters used these phrases a couple months ago to remind us that we lead others into the light. A fantastic book about our cultural and ideological identity is American Exceptionalism by Englishwoman Deborah Madsen. We would form the most perfect Puritan church and society and lead the world. Clearly, our attitude hasn't changed since 1620. American Indians were killed with impunity because they were "savages". They were never human to the settlers. Every group that followed including Chicanos and immigrants was treated the same way, as inhuman, dirty, lazy, savages, etc. for one reason only. For market and capitalist enterprise. Slaves were brought over purely for capitalist enterprise and racism against them did not begin until white indentured servants started colluding with blacks. So this country hasn't changed. It's all about market forces, labor and demonizing anyone who looks different.

Prairielily, there were two distinct waves of imperialism. The first was largely about territory and resources and using them to beat other European countries. Superiority never figured into this; at the time Europe still had an inferiority complex from being right next door to the far more advanced Ottoman Empire.

The imperialism we all know is only the second wave, which began around the late 18th century. And even it was never really applied in the Americas; what triggered it was the fact that the East India Companies became a liability, but by then most native Americans had succumbed to European diseases, and the relatively densely populated areas of the Americas had strong settler elites whose interests were at odds with those of the colonizing country.

The American conception of itself as a city on the hill is an entirely different concept. This wasn't a state that told itself that occupying other countries was its moral duty, but a group of religious fanatics convinced that they could remake heaven on Earth in a new land, and if there already were people in it, then tough luck for them.

Viktor, I entirely agree about the Western conception of women's rights in the third world. I like to say that 95% of Westerners who harp on Islamic misogyny don't give a damn about women's rights except when it can be used as a stick to beat Islam with (though I suspect that the actual number is way lower - say, in the 70s).

Nonwhiteperson, the Americas belong to the natives like Europe belongs to the Basques. In both cases an alien force came to the area, used its superior weaponry to either kill or assimilate the original inhabitants, and is in many ways oppressing them still. The only differences are that there was more assimilation in Europe and much, much more succumbing to disease in the Americas, and that the Indo-Europeans took over Europe 5,000-6,000 years ago whereas the Europeans took over the Americas 400-500 years ago.

Clearly everyone thinks it is fine to be a rascist if you are not white, but wrong if you are. Secondly i have said nothing that is rascist. I assume the majority of you respondents are for Mecha? Their motto sounds alot like the Nazis. They even call themselves the Mexican nazis. Just like Mecha, the Nazis believed they were the Aryan race and had to reclaim their racial right to land now used by the wrong inheriters. Either in this 'Aztlan' you would allow everyone but the 'white' people, or kick every race out. Quite perverted. My comments pertain to the fact that if a people do not assimilate into a bigger culture it means they are perpetuating their countrys beliefs, particularly about women. What would many unassimilated catholics vote on abortion? what about hiring women, and encouraging them to aspire to careers, and not only to a housewife? I find the hypocrisy discusting-what if my online name was nonbrownperson? It seems that by having that name, you would want to be inciting racial discrimination.

Clearly everyone thinks it is fine to be a rascist if you are not white, but wrong if you are.

Clear to you, maybe... not to me.

I assume the majority of you respondents are for Mecha?

Saying that Mecha is an insignificant group or that it's a pathological result of white racism doesn't make you for Mecha. At most it makes you naive and apologetic, but that's an empirical argument, and the facts are not on your side here.

My comments pertain to the fact that if a people do not assimilate into a bigger culture it means they are perpetuating their countrys beliefs, particularly about women.

Mine pertain to the fact that Hispanics are assimilating; you just don't see it because more keep coming, and because even for previous ethnic groups that produced many immigrants, assimilation didn't happen in a day.

check this site out www.axt.org.uk/antisem/archive/archive2/mexico/mexico.htm interesting stuff on their anti-semitism. There is also a good one blacknews.com/pr/racism101.html talks about there treatment of darker colored peoples including their own. As well as this site
wsu.edu/~dee/civamrca/aztecs.htm
as many of you seem to think Europeans were the only ones to have 'conquered' a land.
The site explains where they got their slaves, treatment of women, as well as where they got their religions from. Explains that they have treated women like crap since the Aztec days.Maybe the pot shouldn't be calling the kettle black?
By the way conquests of people have happened throughout the world at all different stages of time-from the mongols, to the barbarians, Alexander the Great, ect It seems the only people who have felt they were xcempted from conquest are these Mexicans.

As for your naive comment about assimilation-why do I have to walk into the Wal-Mart and see everything in both Spanish and English-as previously stated Indians(from India)Japanese, ect do not have these accomodations. It is racist. However my next door neighbors 4th generation can still speak spanish. I can hear them; first her grandma, then her boomer child, then her children, and now they are teaching their 4th generation children spanish as well. No-they are not assimilating.For an added first person observation, there was (and is)a class at my high school (which I've been long gone from)called chicano studies-this is what it was:the teacher would hand out a coloring book, and write on the chalkboard which numbers(in the little spaces) should be colored what, along with some definitions pertaining to Chicanos such as 'gringo' (an ethnic slur), latino, hispanic,conqustadore ect. Basically you had high schoolers color-I even had a mark off for coloring outside the lines. Somehow this is supposed to be a 'reclamation' of pride.Everyone took that class because it was easy-I dropped out.

I did not understand any of your 'reasoning' Alon Levy-explain further.

Well, that's a shame about your high school class. I had a crappy French teacher in high school--all he did was make dirty jokes and try to feel up the girls. Maybe we should keep the French out of the country too.

I really don't see your point at all. Nobody here as argued that Chicano/as can't be as racist and unpleasant as the next people. But so what? Every single culture in the world is imbued with racism and sexism. Somehow Mexican racism and sexism is magically worse?

You are saying absolutely nothing that wasn't said about the Italians, Jews, and Irish. There is not one new single thing in any of your posts. The mark of assimilation, by the way, is not whether children stop speaking the language of the old country; it is whether they begin speaking the language of the new country. And study after study shows that within three generations, all immigrant groups speak English fluently.

Your local Wal-Mart has signs in Spanish? Well, you live in Colorado. I live in NYC, and I see signs in Chinese, Vietnamese, Russian, and Spanish all the time. Back in the day, you could see signs in Yiddish as well. Didn't stop the Jews from assimilating. Hasn't stopped the Chinese from assimilating.

And, "It seems the only people who have felt they were xcempted from conquest are these Mexicans"? Where do you get that notion from? All groups that have been conquered have resented it--go take a look at some of their writings. It's just that until recently, the conquerers got to control what was written and read.

If you're really that concerned about Mexican sexism, shouldn't you be glad that they're immigrating here, where Mexican women will have more opportunities to gain power, and more access to feminism?

I find it funny that people get all up in arms about scary Mexican immigrants, but the strong and politically influential Cuban population down in Florida? No problems, there, despite the multitude of Spanish signs and speech on the street. Must be because the Cubans are so much less sexist than the Mexicans. [That last bit was sarcasm.]

Are you attempting to discredit the present immigrant movement? The majority of the immigrant solidarity movement doesn't give a shit about "re-conquering" the US. Immigrants want to be treated fairly and given a realistic chance at citizenship. Go ahead and pick out the things that you think discredit the movement, and I'll show you right wing hate groups who hate Mexican culture.

Your opinions about what you have to see at Wal-Mart are laughable...your argument is that the world is coming to an end because you are subjected to diversity at a shitty store? And that someone you claim to live near by speaks spanish? Dear God....how will we ever get through this....hey, I have a singular example of how US citizens don't assimilate...goth kids, punk rock kids with spiky hair, homosexuals, people who read and post in feminist blogs...they are not assimilating to the majority culture. According to your method of argumentation, this is enough evidence to support Mecha. Goth kids don't assimilate to the majority culture, so they don't deserve to be here.

Are you attempting to discredit the present immigrant movement? The majority of the immigrant solidarity movement doesn't give a shit about "re-conquering" the US.

EG is right that every group that was conquered has a reason to be angry. That's why I brought up the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. MEChA may be big in Colorado but not anywhere I've been. In Seattle, signs are in English, Chinese and Japanese. Where I live things can be in Spanish because Latinos are the biggest nonwhite group in the US. I use the name nonwhiteperson because personofcolor is probably overused but mainly because people of color suggests whites are not of any color. Whiteness, the social and historical construction of whites, needs to be studied more than any other racial formation. Similarly, it is more productive to study the social construction of masculinity than femininity.

So, humourously you all know more about the Europeans than the Europeans themself-isn't that imperialist? Are your boxes of cereal (name brands) all printed in both russian, vietmanese, ect and english? Because when I open a packet of quaker oatmeal it is only in two languages-spanish and english. And I'm startled to find you find nothing wrong with mechas message? Similar to the Nazis, Mecha also hates the Jews.Anyone that decribes themselves and their movement as Mexican Nazi's does not take the holocaust seriously. I also have yet to see spring up anywhere on my campus a Japanese, Indian, or African hate group. Your accusation that I 'have' to be introduced to diversity is off, I stated that the racial favoritism excludes others from being represented.As far as the chicano class, you had a crappy teacher, not a crappy curriculum. Would you expect a high school(funded by tax dollars) to institute a coloring program for full-grown fully abled people to take as a credit? the conquering part is from my noting that Mexicos history only had about one conquerer, not multiple invasions like the rest of the world. Perhaps because they have not had much experience in interacting with other cultures (like I noted-they have a xenophobics immigration policy, as well as the noted cultural racisms) they feel they are deserving of reclaimed land, instead of seeing the pointlessness of it all. Italy is not trying to re-take Greece for reclaimed territory are they? Also if no one listens to the mecha message, then why do 90% of college campuses, and high schools have one in the southwest?

Also if no one listens to the mecha message, then why do 90% of college campuses, and high schools have one in the southwest?

This may have to do with the history of the southest.

I think I finally grasped your previous message...something about at most it makes me naive or apologetic(?) Apparently you accuse me of being racist because I'm white (assuming something like it's in the gene pool-isn't that racist(?)going by that line of reasoning, then wouldn't that make white people genetically inferior, and apparently because that makes them the big bad mean racists they should be cut from the face of this earth? Doesn't that encourage white suspicion no matter what they say? No wonder theres a double standard on this post-nonwhiteperson can have a racist post name,and not being called on it,(or expected too) but if I had nonbrownperson it would be racist, and a further tally on my white color suporting your suspicions about the entire white race-you failed to answer me on that.

nonwhiteperson,
what excuse can you give that would make it allowable to have a 'movement' by a people who's motto is 'everything for the race. Everything outside of it, nothing.'Who boast about calling themselves the Mexican Nazi's?

I use the name nonwhiteperson because right now Americans are whites and nonwhites. It is said that Asians and Latinos will be white in the near future and we will eventually be blacks and nonblacks which I hope never happens. People of color is good for political clout but it wouldn't be original to call myself that and whiteness needs to be studied more than any other socially constructed race. I don't have your experience with MEChA but to be honest many militant nonwhite groups have been like this. If you're in the southwest I can see why they're that angry and militant. I don't feel threated by MEChA but I do feel threatened by white supremacy because they have the most influence right now not just within our borders but in the entire world. It's threatening to end the life as we know it right now. All this hatred against "ragheads" is threatening to end the world as we know it and we should focus on what's important. The threat from the Black Panthers for example was exaggerated. Have you ever felt threatened by militant blacks? Has MEChA threatened to end your world as you know it? I will leave you with a quote.

Institutional Racism is the failure of historically white institutions to be accountable to people of color. Institutions were historically established to serve white communities. The structure is accountable to white people, and if unchanged intentionally, persists in serving people in a racist way. Institutions for people of color were technically illegal in the United States until 1863 and the Emancipation Proclamation. Until 1954 (Brown versus Board) it operated with the principle of segregation and Jim Crow. These institutions have power over all our lives. Can you think of an institution created by people of color, to serve people of color, that has power over the lives of white people? (Don't say affirmative action because it benefitted white women more than anyone else).

To clarify, would be terrible if the US became so racist against blacks that we were delineated into nonblacks and blacks.

nonwhiteperson,
The only way you can say that no mecha exists where you've been is to say you've never been to the southwest. As far as concepts of 'whiteness' is concerned, I like to consider myself Italian, or European. I do not appreciate others creating negatives concerning my culture as well as my race stemming from 500 years ago. Your perspective of my culture only notice the bad things, and omit the overwhelming good things, such as Captain Cook's caution when writing about the natives of Australia (the aborigenes), womens movements, cures for diseases, emerging solutions for environmental problems, their arts, as well as much of their knowledge. I certainly do not accuse Germans of being anti-sematic just because of the holocaust-they have made amends, and are eager to denounce Irans accusations that the holocaust did not exist. However, when a race, or culture hold onto an event 500 years ago to resurrect today to justify their 'reclamation' of land,illegal behavior (after all-we are in a terror war) and their racial 'right' to it, it is racist, as well as an injustice. You define modern 'whites' by your own definition, almost mixing in the segrtegated south, colonist christians (which are no different than the muslim zealots in Europe), as well as any comment taken wrongly by your suspicions of the 'whites,' almost bordering on some mental illness. To define my perspectives for me, as well as to define me by the negative consequences that happened from events 'years' ago is racist-you are only using these events to justify your reasonings to 'hate' whites. You cannot see the race for who they are today! Which is wrong as Europeans were not the only ones to conquer people-everyone has done it!It seems they are taking the burden for everyone! What became of the conquest(?)...America. Europe sailed the oceans to explore, (despite not knowing where they were going, dragons n'such)to test their own theory's about the world, and to gather riches.It was a good time for Europe, they were not besieged by the plague, and the religious zealots were retreating, people were evolving-and that is probably why they founded another continent-to expand their ideas.

The problem that is wrong with that way of thinking is you automatically assume they are racist because they are white. That is a superficial description, that defines what racism is. I don't think it's segregated into blacks and non-blacks. I don't view things that way!This isn't 1950!Why should I have to be held accountable to black people-or any race? Why should I have to take the burden of a person (who is more than likely-long dead) who was a racist in the 1920s. Doesn't that just teach us to always look backwards? I don't expect a man to give me reperations because his great-great-great grandfather voted against having a woman in office. So what if bad things happened in this country to your race-it doesn't justify assuming every white person now has to be binded by their color of skin to now account for it. Why don't we build the justice system on that concept; someone else steals , but because were the same color of skin(same gender-whatever)that I have to do jail time.That would be a form of slavery-allowing myself to be defined only by the negatives other races can connotate pertaining to my race.Isn't that hypocritical. Also, allowing yourself to be defined by an external entity is what feminists have had to fight ( ads, magazine images, social interpretations). You have a jaded view of my race.Apparently, like I posted above-you think only white people can be racist (genetics;what(?), and because at some time or other another group was racist against yours does not somehow immunize you from that human problem. Blacks can't be racists?That is horribly naive, as well as racist in itself.

The problem that is wrong with that way of thinking is you automatically assume they are racist because they are white. That is a superficial description, that defines what racism is.

Yeah, some people think all whites are racists. Not a lot do, and those who do generally get the same treatment from me that you're getting now. It's racist to start accusing people of racism just because they're white, just like it's racist to say that some ethnic group must be kept out of the country because of a factually wrong argument about assimilation.

However, when a race, or culture hold onto an event 500 years ago to resurrect today to justify their 'reclamation' of land,illegal behavior (after all-we are in a terror war) and their racial 'right' to it, it is racist, as well as an injustice.

Uh, yeah. Except for the fact that you still haven't shown me that Mecha is anything but a fringe group (the 90% of campuses figure is misleading - how many campuses have a Campus Crusade for Christ? Or, for that matter, a Marxist society?). It's not "a race" or "a culture"; it's "a few racists." Labeling every Hispanic a racist because of that is as pernicious as labeling every white a racist because of your bullshit theory of choice.

nonwhite person you seem to have an unhealthy fear pertaining to the continued establishment of your race. Doesn't that sound racist? Particulalry as Africans are one of the majority's in the world, it would be excessive if not xenophobic to worry over the continued existence of your race. I think that mindset masks, and gives an excuse torwards hating whites.

Not alot accuse whites of being racists just because they're white-show me proof before making that statement, as clearly these postings show otherwise.
Now I never said that a group of people must be kept out of a country because they cannot assimilate...now what would lead you to put words in my mouth-hmmm-how about the fact that you (certainly not(!) do not instantly accuse white people of being racists just because they are white? Perhaps you (obviously) misinterpreted much of what I wrote (horribly so) because you associate these observances solely to white people who are of course all a bunch of racists. What does Marxism have to do with race? Or Campus Crusade for Christ-last I heard they didn't feel entitled to their racial land reclamation, nor advocate for it.How many Nazi, and KKK groups do you have on campus-as that would be along the lines of racism. I didn't label every hispanic a racist-you did. According to a recent 2002 zogby poll 58% of hispanics agreed with the statement that 'the territory of the united states southwest rightfully belongs to Mexico,' 28% disagreed and 14% were unsure. Campus Crusade for Christ boasts of 16,000 memebrs in 60 different countries. Mecha boasts that there are estimated to be over 1000 chapters according to their azteca.net in their common questions section of the website.Now if there's no proof that it's a fringe organization, then there's not any proof that it's not-it seems like you are expecting a double standard-you can assume your right, but I have to prove it? Apparently your suspicious because I'm white?

Not alot accuse whites of being racists just because they're white-show me proof before making that statement, as clearly these postings show otherwise.
Now I never said that a group of people must be kept out of a country because they cannot assimilate...now what would lead you to put words in my mouth-hmmm-how about the fact that you (certainly not(!) do not instantly accuse white people of being racists just because they are white? Perhaps you (obviously) misinterpreted much of what I wrote (horribly so) because you associate these observances solely to white people who are of course all a bunch of racists. What does Marxism have to do with race? Or Campus Crusade for Christ-last I heard they didn't feel entitled to their racial land reclamation, nor advocate for it.How many Nazi, and KKK groups do you have on campus-as that would be along the lines of racism. I didn't label every hispanic a racist-you did. According to a recent 2002 zogby poll 58% of hispanics agreed with the statement that 'the territory of the united states southwest rightfully belongs to Mexico,' 28% disagreed and 14% were unsure. Campus Crusade for Christ boasts of 16,000 memebrs in 60 different countries. Mecha boasts that there are estimated to be over 1000 chapters according to their azteca.net in their common questions section of the website.Now if there's no proof that it's a fringe organization, then there's not any proof that it's not-it seems like you are expecting a double standard-you can assume your right, but I have to prove it? Apparently your suspicious because I'm white?

What I meant to say is you feel entitled to have that view about me, because I'm white.

Not alot accuse whites of being racists just because they're white-show me proof before making that statement, as clearly these postings show otherwise.

Nonwhiteperson never said that outright. To date, I know of two bloggers who explicitly said that all whites are racist: Dru Blood, and Bitch | Lab. Neither is even close to mainstream.

It's always a good idea to distinguish what's said in the comment thread of a 9,000 hits a day blog from what's mainstream.

Now I never said that a group of people must be kept out of a country because they cannot assimilate

Okay, let me ask you this: do you support any further restrictions on immigration, or oppose amnesty, based on the existence of Hispanic nationalism?

According to a recent 2002 zogby poll

I couldn't find any reference to the poll that doesn't come from WorldNetDaily, an unreliable source. Googling with site:zogby.com yields no poll on the issue, ever.

By the way, even WorldNetDaily reports that the poll is of Mexicans, not Hispanic-Americans. Assuming that I can't find the actual poll because a Mecha hacker removed it to confuse me, what it means is that Mexicans want the rich and prosperous Southwestern US back whereas Mexican-Americans want to belong to the rich and prosperous US.

Alon: If you replace "all whites" with "the vast majority of whites" (which is a fairly reasonable sustitution, as few things in life ar absolutes) you will have little trouble finding more bloggers who share that view. Just FYI.

Levy-duh- I know nonwhitepperson didn't write that.Der...
I assumed because you knew you wrote that, that you'd know that I was responding to you. Don't skirt the issue. I'm still waiting for my explanation from your response from the post which began with the statement, 'clearly you think it is fine to be racist as long as you are not white, but wrong if you are.' I am refering and pointing out the white racism from the statements at the very top, such as WCGoddesses remark that 'I'm still not sure why white Americans continue to have such a sense of entitlement,' to Alon Levy's laziness in looking up the exact statistics about how many mexicans want the southwest to go back to Mexico (it is not something like 5%)-which is 58% according to a zogby poll-again Levy assuming your right doesn't mean it is.This isn't la-la world, and your not the king.I did not know one white man's comments would somehow speak for every white person on this planet!

I feel like somebody's mommy today, Levy
I don't know how long you've dealt with the internet, but it's really quite simple,really
go to yahoo, type in zogby-hit on the website, go to their search, and type in southwest in their zogby in the media section, the poll will be the 13th.First you have to try Levy.

Yes, the study was done in Mexico- I am trying to show the illegal immigrants attitude. If they come illegally and have some sense of entitlement, then they are less likely to adopt more women friendly views.

freewmn:

The gratuitous insults aren't helping your case.

I can't find what you're referring to now, and I've been finding things on the web since it was called Archie. Typing in "zogby-hit" into the yahoo.com search bar comes up with a list of links, none of which goes to anything called "zogby in the media". Googling "site:yahoo.com 'zogby in the media'" doesn't return any results. Checking the Zogby site for Yahoo references comes up with a page pointing at "Zogby/Reuters Yahoo! Public Opinion Headlines", but the link itself comes back not found.

Googling on the actual quoted question text brought back an obscenely large number of links, most of which were garbage, in terms of usefully sourced information. Trawling through them eventually brought me through the Americans for Immigration Control site, which isn't exactly an unbiased source, but it turns out that they're the ones that commissioned the poll, so they've posted the complete poll report there, including all results and methodology. That appears to be useful information. I never did find whatever Yahoo link you were recommending.

I don't intend to get too far into what appears to be completely unsupported and fruitless speculation about motives and senses of entitlement (that poll, including your quoted question, doesn't cover most of what you seem to believe it covers, and I don't know of any polls that ask the relevant questions), but I'd like to add that you might have gotten a better response if you'd just found and posted the direct link rather than force people to dig for something remotely credible and then abuse them when it wasn't immediately apparent. If you expect others to take seriously your citations, the burden is on you to make those citations as easily verifiable from a reputable source as possible, or note when they're not.

If she had a link, s/he would have provided it by now. I think it's safe to assume that s/he can't find the data, either, and is trying to save face. It isn't really working, but hey, s/he's an anonymous troll...

Cheers,

TH

It doesn't give me the link. This is what I did, by the way zogby does many polls and have been in business since 1984. Just go to yahoo.com see the home page then under search type in (this is the way it's spelled: zogby) and it will come up-like 20th century magik! I can't believe you just called me a troll Tom Head-very becoming, I know you can't think intelligently because your a man, but really, on a feminist site. What kind of women are these that let a man say that-what next-witch-or maybe even bitch. Remind you your place in a womens territory asshole.

You know full well I'm a woman, and by your crap comments, I know your a man.

Zogby.com

Whoa! How did this thread get so wacky? Sorry freewmn, I had to delete your last comment and ban you. I can't let people get so out of control on the site...

I'm an online gypsy!

Okay, I'm getting increasingly confused here.

Freewmn, I'm into free speech. If you think your comment was important enough, find an appropriate post on my blog for it, or email it to me and I'll post it. Of course I'll probably add a snarky rebuttal, but I won't delete you.

Alon, given that Jessica is also into free speech, I think it's safe to assume that whatever freewmn posted was so offensive that you wouldn't want to repeat it.

Cheers,

TH

Re gender: I took the name "freewmn" to be an abbreviation for "free white man," given the position taken. Apologies for any gender identity dysmorphia that might have resulted from my use of inclusive language. ;o)

Cheers,

TH

Alon, we're clear on our comments policy. If you personally attack people (and in this case, a really nasty personal attack)--you get banned. We used to be a little more lenient, but we just can't afford to be anymore. We need to maintain a level of discourse that progresses the conversation...thanks.

I thought it was pretty clear it was "free woman" or "free women."

And okay... personal attacks are personal attacks, of course. Though I had no trouble reposting the trollish comment that both you and Feministe got a few days ago, along with my editorialization, "Point at that person and laugh."

*despondent sigh* Yes, freewmn, you're right. One man makes it past the rigorous committee peer-review process to get his comments approved, and he blows it for his entire chromosome. I guess the only recourse is to end it all, jumping to my doom from a 400-foot volcanic phallus with a Maxim in one hand and a beer in the other, humming the theme to Monday Night RAW as I fall down, down, deep into death's vaginal chasm, buried in the womb of the Earth, as...

Oh, hell, I can't stop giggling long enough to write this. Welcome to Feministing, freewmn! And allow me to introduce myself. I'm Tom Head. I've been here a long time and I'll be here a long time. I'm like an Ent. Except with less foliage.

Cheers,

TH

Also am I banned from the site, or just this post?

You're banned from the site--sorry. Please stop recreating names, I'm just going to ban you by IP address.

I've found that the problem of white bashing can easily be solved by turning the mixer down a notch or mixing a yolk or two into the batter. Worse comes to worst, sticking the batter in the refrigerator for an hour or two will generally allow the whites to settle, and then one can proceed from there.

The important thing is to make sure that the froth isn't there when the cake actually goes into the oven; every time I do that the cake comes out uneven, and while I don't mind it so much, it does affect the texture.

(Jessica, thank you for doing what you do. As someone who has been on a LOT of blogs where personal attacks go absolutely wild... Sometimes going into some really nasty personal territory... I know it can make life downright unbearable. I get cranky myself, but try not to descend into actual personal attacks. Every now and then I slip up, especially if I'm talking to a really patronizing elected official...)

Cheers,

TH