Yikes. I mean, there's nothing wrong with taking your kid out for ice cream, but calling it "dating" your daughter? Making innocent time together into a function of some kind of creepy fertilily rite? This is just 10 kinds of fucked-up.

I don't mind the dating language nearly as much as I mind this:

"I have tremendously more impact on my daughter than my wife does."

Excuse me? What, exactly, does he base this insulting statement on? I guess moms really are disposable, relatively speaking. The woman who (presumably) is in charge of feeding the kids three times a day isn't on par, influence-wise, with the man who takes the kid out for the occasional ice cream cone.

And here I thought parents were supposed to be equal.

No kidding. I'm all kinds of in favor of dads spending one-on-one time with their daughters of all ages, but do we have to make it quasi-sexual?

First, it just continues the whole tired stereotype where (straight) women are just looking to marry men who are just like their fathers (because, of course, we don't want a partner-for-life, we want a daddy-for-life to take care of us).

And secondly, beyond the weird, creepy dynamic it tries to set up, there's a really disturbing undertone of "men only do things if sex is involved". Like there's no way in hell a father would play ball with his daughter or take her to the zoo or the planetarium, but he'll leap at the chance to go out on a "date" with her. Eww!

I'm all for involved parenting, but there's a line between teaching your daughter to respect herself and expect others to do the same, and drilling lessons about modesty and appropriate behavior while role-playing that your dad is your date. Of course, if you want to make sure she knows that fellow taking her out is the authority figure, ya'll go right ahead. I'm sure that will turn out fiiiine.

In addition, and not to be TOO serious and critical, it seems like ice cream parlor dates aren't the best way to induce father-daughter bonding. I mean, I agree with the previous post that encourages visiting a zoo or a planetarium. I'm sure the fathers mean well, but it feels strange that father-daughter time should be this sweet, passive, no-running-jumping-or-playing-allowed, sugar-and-spice act. Maybe I'm just over-analyzing, but it seems odd.

Or perhaps I'm just concerned that the girls will get cavities.

To echo the other commenters, the part that stuck out at me was: "I have tremendously more impact on my daughter than my wife does." If that's so why does your wife have to be the one who stays home with her?

That "impact" quote sticks in my craw.

Is the wife officially now some sort of combination food-dispenser/sex-receticle? What the hell is that supposed to mean, anyway? I'm all for fathers realizing that they have a responsibility towards their children, but I'll be damned if my dad had more or better "impact" on me than my mother.

...Ick.

creepy

And gosh, doesn't this sound like fun? "7. Shop. This may be the only chance you have at helping her pick out an outfit. It also provides a great opportunity for a healthy talk about modesty." Way to raise a punk rocker.

Seriously, this thread is an example of why I love this site. I read the article, and while finding the language a little creepy, read it as fathers just spending quality time with their daughters. But the points made here really make me read it in a different way. I connect the dots on my own a lot, but sites like this also give me a lot of insight from another point of view. Thanks.

Oh, I know, creepy shit.

"covert incest," anyone?

Yeah, I mean.. I am all for father daughter bonding, ice cream and shopping and talking is positive! Influencing her hymen decisions and talk of "dating daddy"?!?!.. is just..I am at a loss for the right word.. just gross.

Way to enforce negative male image foftards.

Competing with their wives for 'impact' on their daughters - 'impact' that has disturbing sexual overtones.
This makes my skin crawl.
Why don't these men feel revolted just thinking about this?

What is being done to wipe out this kind of behavior?
That is, beyond feminist websites raising awareness about how harmful this behavior is.

Okay, my husband and father-in-law take our daughter fishing, he's a coach on her softball team, they do woodworking project kits together, fix his motorcycle, and sometimes he just gets down in the floor and plays with toys. Yet with all the time he spends with her, he has never called it a date, nor has he looked upon that time as a way to "affirm her femininity". That is just fucking gross.

I agree with the statment that a child that has been ignored will not be likely to come to their parents with tough questions later. I also agree that children benefit from both positive male and female influences. But to set it up this way is just creepy. And to assume that an occasional "date" night makes daddy the primary influence in a daughter's life is just ridiculous.

I would post more, but I think I'm going to throw up.

Well Focus on the Family is the same fine organization that suggested young boys should shower with daddy so that they can see clearly who is boss - you think I am making this shit up?

"Meanwhile, the boy's father has to do his part. He needs to mirror and affirm his son's maleness. He can play rough-and-tumble games with his son, in ways that are decidedly different from the games he would play with a little girl. He can help his son learn to throw and catch a ball. He can teach him to pound a square wooden peg into a square hole in a pegboard. He can even take his son with him into the shower, where the boy cannot help but notice that Dad has a penis, just like his, only bigger." http://www.family.org/docstudy/newsletters/a0021043.cfm

These people obviously have some deviant view of human life that focuses mainly on sexuality and its suppression as a huge source of power.

"For men mindful of their Day-Timers, Robert Wolgemuth, author of She Calls Me Daddy, warns against multitasking."

This sounds pornographic to me. If Jessica Simpson were younger, she and her daddy would have gone on ice cream dates, gone to the Purity Ball and been the poster couple for the chastity movement.

gross gross gross. ugh i cant even begin to describe how gross and perverted. what the hell is wrong with these wackos?!
i am going to be sure and tell all my male gay friends....if only your dad had showered with you.

also, notice the lack of talk about lesbians. gee i wonder why? is as if gay men are the ultimate threat but gay women, since they hold some sort of sexual attractiveness to straight men, are treated as a little less abnormal.

Anyone else think of Joe Simpson when reading this? He's Jessica Simpson's daddy and once remarked about her Double-Ds. *shudder*

"He can even take his son with him into the shower, where the boy cannot help but notice that Dad has a penis, just like his, only bigger."

One can only hope.

Why must it be competitive and sexual? I'd just assumed my partner and I would go out for family activities with our daughter, that's just normal in a healthy family. Sure I want him to share one-on-one time doing their favorite activities, and it may well be having tea, but at least it would actually reflect them and not some stereotype. Why do these men feel the need to congratulate themselves for taking a human interest in their children, and why do they need some sort of sexual impetus to motivate themselves to do it?

By the way, I have no problem with a little respectful family nudity. Seeing a real live nonsexualized naked person has its benefits, especially seeing a parent a few times in your lifetime since they resemble you the most and help reinforce that the child is normal. Ever seen the movie Nell? That's what I'm thinking. Nonsexual, human situations where people happen to be naked, like skinny dipping, steaming in a sauna, or so forth. Unless they're really young, I'm somehow uncomfortable with the shower, perhaps because it's too private. Make sense? Dobson still creeps me out.

yes indeedy, that is the surest way to make sure your son does not, in fact, develop pesky unwanted erotic and/or traumatic affectional bonds to men. By showering with him. and making a special point that he notices your (bigger!) Penis. be sure to keep up a running commentary about what it means to be a Manly Man, and maybe throw in something about how disgusting those faggots are, complete with some piquant detail ("how disgusting were they?") just to drive your point firmly home.

If sonny boy balks, you can always take him out to the woodshed and give him a sound, old-fashioned, this-hurts-me-more-than-it-hurts-you, spanking or paddling. also see: Dr. James "Dare to disciple" Dobson" for more sense on this subject.

oh, hey, you know what else would be good? Camping. preferably in an all-male environment. and sports. rugged, manly, sweaty, all-male sports.

maybe buy him some muscle magazines, and some weights to lift, and a gym membership. you know, for inspiration.

If all that isn't enough to send your son on route to being a proud, healthy heterosexual, then I don't know what is.

Is anyone else thinking of Baby Jane Hudson croaking, "I've written a letter to Daddy..."?

YES!!

"He can even take his son with him into the shower, where the boy cannot help but notice that Dad has a penis, just like his, only bigger."

One can only hope."

That's pretty funny.

Yesteday I was just disgusted at the article and today I am laughing my ass off at the comments. I love this site.

What the hell is wrong with these people??

Manda, I believe that what your husband and father-in-law are doing is WRONG, because they are not reinforcing deeply feminine stereotypes. Fishing? Softball? They may as well take her to see the Vagina Monologues!

Clearly, your daughter will grow up to be an overaggressive feminist who sleeps around because her father didn't show her exactly what girls are supposed to enjoy.

(Please note that none of that was serious.)

I know, prarielily. And the sad truth is that my son will grow up to be gay because when I read him the article Suebob mentioned, my husband flat out refused to have a shower-time measuring contest with our little boy.

If only Dr. Dobson could make my husband understand that he needs to date our daughter and flash our son in order for them to grow up right. Sigh.

"If only Dr. Dobson could make my husband understand that he needs to date our daughter and flash our son in order for them to grow up right."

Hysterically funny! Thanks, Manda.

On the other hand -- oooo, gross! These folks are beyond creepy. My kids have seen me briefly nude or semi nude, just not as part of any big production. And damn it, if my husband is going to "date" anyone, it had better be me!

Not only is all of this smack of emotional incest what of teaching the boys to stay pure? I think putting all of a person's worth on what is parked between their legs is utter manure but if these people really want their kids to stay 'pure' until marriage they need to teach the boys to restrain themselves as well. It isn't just girls saying yes that causes the result they don't want - it is boys asking to begin with. I am so sick of all the responsability being put on the female

For people who claim that gender roles are inate, rather than cultural, these fundies sure needs to spend a lot of time culturally enforcing them...

For people who claim that gender roles are inate, rather than cultural, these fundies sure needs to spend a lot of time culturally enforcing them...

A great point.

JG, are boys really "wired to be the aggressor" or does society just find male aggression acceptable? And how do you come to the conclusion that women are "wired to be the chooser"? Perhaps it is that from a very young age males are socialized to believe that their manliness is connected to the number of women they can sleep with and that male promiscuity is just part of human nature. Girls, on the other hand, are told that it is their responsibility to say no and that if they have numerous sexual partners they are immoral. Those different social standards alone may explain the different attitudes you find in the club.

You are correct, men and women are different in a lot of ways, but not all of those differences are influenced solely by biology. That is common sense as well.

Gawd! Leave it to you loons to take an innocent activity and put a molester/rapist/sicko spin on it.

Just cannot handle the thought that a father, you know, the other half of making a child, could possible have a positive influence on a child, let alone a girl, eh? And God, oh sorry, goddess, forbid he might even have a leg up on dear ole mom...

Nothing to see here.... Nope. No misandry here.. move along.

TMOTS

I disagree that men are "wired" to be aggressors and women are "wired" to be choosers.

However, even IF it were true, Fundamentalist Christians believe people are NOT determined by their biology. IN THEORY, when two kids sin in the backseat of a car, the boy has an equal share in that sin - he's going to hell just as surely as the girl is. If so, the Christians better start drilling the purity ritual into the boys.

Especially with all the loose, skanky feminists' daughters just about to hit puberty. ;)

(Totally joking, as I consider myself a member of that group.)

"Leave it to you loons to take an innocent activity and put a molester/rapist/sicko spin on it."

What, exactly, is so "innocent" about "dating" your own daughter? They're the ones who put the "molester/sicko spin on it" by using the language of sexual interaction, not us.

When I was a little girl, my dad took me to baseball games, played baseball with me, helped me with my homework, took care of my when I was sick, took me to the park, bought me ice cream, etc. I'm fairly sure he had a positive influence on me, and yet...he never called it "dating." He was my father--he was spending time taking care of me like a decent parent should.

Wow, that is just sick! If you want to know how a father can spend time with his daughter and show her how to grow up into a decent woman, take a few tips from my father. When I was growing up, my father sometimes took me clothes shopping and took me out to eat, but he also went fishing with me, played catch with me, and taught me martial arts. He also always told me that I could do anything that a boy could and that I should never let the fact that I'm female keep me from doing something I wanted to do. I grew up participating in track, strength training, and karate, and my father always told me that I would be just as physically strong as a man if I wanted to, regardless that I was a girl. In fact, my father was just as content to clean the house and do "women's work" as my mother was! I became a feminist because of my father because he let the fact that I was female keep me from doing whatever I wanted or pushing me into certain gender roles because of my femininity. We need more fathers like mine. Thanks, Dad!