That sickens me.

I wish for just a moment, these men could feel the fear, pain, anger, and humiliation that victims of rape and their loved ones feel. Not that I want anyone to actually be assualted, but I just want them to experience those emotions for just a few minutes. I imagine they would not think their little stunt was so clever afterward.

Now, don't flame me, but it seems like these guys are making fun of the Duke Idiots. It's in terrible taste, but it really seems like they are trying to mock rather than condone. Kind of like mocking sexist truckers with the awesome Feministing logo?

I would have thought as much too, Erica. (Or at least hoped as much.) But the gal who told me about these fools apparently confronted them and that wasn't the case. They were just fucking assholes.

Hmmm.

If no means yes, then "not guilty" would mean "guilty," wouldn't it?

I hate to engage in the whole judgment-at-first-sight thing, but those guys just _look_ like gigantic assholes. I would have trouble believing that, even if they are "joking," they're in any way sympathetic or supportive of any cause other than general prickery.

As I understand it, the accusation that she's been changing her story is hearsay of hearsay of hearsay -- as in, it's a leak of a comment of someone who claimed to have heard it in a conversation between two police officers that actually questioned her.

Currently known evidence:

She had injuries consistent with rape trauma.

She was at the Duke party.

Sufficient violence was inflicted upon her at the Duke party for her to lose several fingernails and leave some of her belongings behind as she left.

DNA evidence does not conclusively demonstrate that a Duke lacrosse player raped her.

That's it. As far as I know, that's all the hard information that has been released. The rest is attack ads. If you know differently, please provide references.

Zed - Here is the latest:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,196631,00.html

This is reported through "defense sources" by FoxNews (read critically), but this could clarify some questions you might have about her changing stories (multiple police officers heard them and the 2nd stripper even called one particular version "a crock") and her injuries (swelling only, no signs of tearing). None of the things brought up here help the prosecution's case.

As for these assholes in San Fransisco: anybody with even a little tact knows that this case is no laughing matter.

"I wish for just a moment, these men could feel the fear, pain, anger, and humiliation that victims of rape and their loved ones feel. ... but I just want them to experience those emotions for just a few minutes."

Hey, you never know, maybe they will. Maybe they'll have someone accuse them of rape falsely.

Oh wait, the effects of that would last a lifetime. Never mind.

A lack of sympathy for rape victims is reprehensible, but a lack of condemnation for false allegations is equally reprehensible.

That would be relevant to this were a bunch of people holding up signs that maliciously trivialize the experiences of those falsely accused.

How many posts was it before this turned into, “but what about the men�? 7 is it? These guys aren't even suggesting somebody wasn't raped and somebody is falsely accused, either: it was about rape victims. Gee, even when it’s blatantly about women it’s about men. Aye, yey, yey…

Quite honestly, I don't think - as far as this pathetic display of "humor" goes - the credibility of the accusations matters. This is not simply about the Duke case. It is an insult to everyone - male or female - who has been a victim of sexual abuse.

And if you're so concerned about the players you believe are innocent, don't you think it is incredibly thoughtless of these jerks to make fun of young men whose lives could be ruined by what you assume are false charges?

Get over yourself, Felix.

Everyone else already has.

where i think this fails is that proto-rapists aren't smart enough to do the irony thing. "no means yes" could be powerful, if proto-rapists were intelligent people for whom there was never any ambiguity in the word "no." sadly, this display probably just confused dumbass proto-rapists (read: frat boys) all the more.

I agree;

So what do you want, a cookie?

you should probably pull out whatever is lodged so far up your ass, Durga.

Making logical statements with regards to the usual unhinged individuals who need to derail and trivialize something by bringing in irrelevancies is to keep it on track, no matter how snarky or sarcastic (which I like), so piss up a rope.

I think we should start a drinking/dime-dropping/whatever’ing game.

take a shot/drop a dime/whatever if… An MRA/MRA-lite makes a red-herring/talking-point in the way of, “you feminists revel in victim-hood, you infantilize yourselves.� in response to discussing/reacting to a woman/women actually being victimized/treated as children

take a shot/drop a dime/whatever if… An MRA/MRA-lite makes red-herring/talking-point in the way of, “… actually, it is really about men/but this makes men feel…� in response to discussing/reacting to something that effects women (an extra one if he/she just used the first argument)

take a shot/drop a dime/whatever if… An MRA/MRA-lite makes red-herring/talking-point in the way of, “if you really cared, you’d be talking about men, too� (again, take an extra if they just made any of the above points)

take a shot/drop a dime/whatever if… An MRA/MRA-lite puts up a straw-man(feminist)

take a shot/drop a dime/whatever if… An MRA/MRA-lite over-does the RIGHTEOUS CAP-LOCKS of INDIGNATION (and/or excessive EXPLANATION POINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!)

take a shot/drop a dime/whatever if… An MRA/MRA-lite says something in the way of, “all I did was put words in your mouth/attack with negative stereotypes/consistently and disrespectfully derail the discussion at hand, but you saying mean things to hurt my feewings instead of being courteous and lady-like and telling me what I want to hear proves I’m RIGHT and feminists are BAD!�

take a shot/drop a dime/whatever if… An MRA/MRA-lite claims feminism is “dead� and nobody cares, we scare people off.

take a shot/drop a dime/whatever if… An MRA/MRA-lite claims feminism has “taken over everything, OMG! Everybody is oppressed by it!� (again, take another one if they made the point preceding this one)

take a shot/drop a dime/whatever if… An MRA/MRA-lite claims feminism/feminists are irrational and the movement as a whole is therefore obsolete and even a nuisance.

take a shot/drop a dime/whatever if… An MRA/MRA-lite claims feminism/feminists are needed to “help men� yet they selfishly don’t (another one if they made the point preceding this one. Two more if they spend their time sitting on the sidelines and not doing anything for men themselves)

Then, we can all take a pool as to how many posts in it will all start.

Durga - Sorry about the "up your ass quote". Some ass is pirating my name on Feministing lately.

Jessica - Is their anything I can do to stop this, or should I just give up and change names?

I'm going to go on the record saying that it doesn't matter if the men featured in the photo are trying to be ironic. I read it as ironic and so it is (to me, and for now-- can we ever be more definitive than that?) What I think is in the poorest taste on this page are all these snarky comments and anti-man / anti-woman generalizations. T-a-c-k-y. The Oprah thing is hilarious-- you're not just hating on all women, Felix, you're hating on a very specific demographic of women and *gasp* men. Yours was such a weird post! Where did that come from?

This conversation was originally more about social responses to rape than rape itself, I think. The issue is one of power, and the sad truth of the matter is that socially men have more of it than women. And this relates back to the original post: what these men are doing is terrible in part because they are doing so from a pretty privileged position.

felix, you yourself are merely confirming the stereotype of the misogynist - and it isn't helping your cause at all. How dare you trivialise the issue, even as a "gag", by making it about women you do/do not find attractive?

noname (assuming that's really you): Do you have a source that isn't Fox News? They're not a credible source (not only do they get facts wrong at a drastically higher rate than any other news provider, but they have been known to completely fictionalize events).

will real noname please stand up? ugh. i'll look into it.

Jessica - Thanks. Whoever it is is making personal attacks on other posters. I don't particularly want to be associated with that sort of behavior.

Zed - Nope. Just FoxNews. That's why I warned to "read critically".

Felix - I had to re-read my message to figure out why on Earth you would bring up football. I see, now! You think that when I accuse you of hating on men, I'm talking about your football comment. Uhm, nope, actually, I'm still talking about Oprah viewers. The fact that it is so inconceivable to you that any men at all (hence, the sarcastic "gasp") watch Oprah is hilarious. I do think you're being hateful, and that confirms it. (Though, honestly, there's a difference between being a hater and being hateful.) When you hear "Oprah," think of a closed set of touchy-feely women? You believe in pre-dispositions to watching Oprah? What's next? Girls are born liking pink? Who are you, that you aren't yet weary of supposed predispositions toward gendered (read: unequally valued) behavior? Do you believe in a gay gene, too?

I want to be clear, though. To me, suggesting that women are predisposed to certain behaviors recalls arguments such as, "her fingers are nimble, and that is why she will stay locked in the dark factory sewing aprons for eighteen hours a day; she is predisposed to this type of work." What I got from reading your post was this, put simply:

I am making fun of Oprah viewers--> I am implying that they are all women--> I am making fun of women.

That still seems pretty weird to me. Have you noticed this site is "By and for young feminists"?

noname, I figured as much. ;)

As for the Faux News thing, whats-her-face (Meghan something, she also did the piece you read) reported on it and she admitted it was only stuff that "helped" them released, in fairness to her. This just came from the report the DA turned over and we don't know who those "two sources" are that said she changed her story (for all we know, it could be more of the same deal before) however no police report actually recorded an alternate version of it apparently (that was all consistant), it just says she appears to have. So, whatever.

But the usual slut-bating, stereotypes, in this case racial shit, and whatnot keeps being thrown up as it had since the beginning and as it would have no matter what happened and no matter what the circumstances of any rape case (OC, St. John Lacrosse rape, Kobe Bryant) by on-lookers. I mean, we wouldn't need any false-accusers to "set women back" because as we can see, a lot of people never really moved foward.

Felix, you're not doing men any favors, you're part of the problem. Within a few short posts you've argued for sympathy for the devil in cases of rape and violence, equated conservatism with masculinity, and held up stereotypical traits as beyond reproach because they represent manhood and supporting men means not criticizing their manhood, or stereotype in your case. Except that the liberation men need is from the confining stereotype you take shelter in, and from the violence of other men, not half-baked, thinly veiled backlash against women. Men and women remain two sides of the same coin, two physiological aspects of humanity. You can't denigrate one without effecting the other.

So you've proven you don't stand for feminism, but that doesn't get you off the hook. Failing to be feminist doesn't mean you're supporting the cause of men, it's not one of these absurd "you're either for us or against us" with feminism somehow representing the only thing against men, if it's really against men at all. It means you're not doing something. No one gets a medal for doing nothing. If you want change, you still have to stand up for men rather than resorting to tearing everything else down.

And for the record, Fox News is demonstrably more than just biased, they've flat out fabricated "news items" while ignoring news they didn't like. Buy a propaganda textbook from a university bookstore and watch O'Reilly with your book open.

I'm a long-time reader of this blog but I haven't paid much attention to the comments section until recently.

While there are a lot of interesting conversations--initiated by both feminists and anti-feminists-- there are also a fair amount of trolls whose bait (unfortunately) is often taken by the other posters.

A particularly nasty one I've noticed goes by the handle "felix." He is a half-baked rightwinger immune to rational thought or common knowledge. (I recall in another thread he told a self-identified Jewish atheist that there is no such thing as Jewish atheists...priceless. I think a Woody Allen flick or two would do him some good). He never fails to offend-- especially in this thread, where he tried to switch the focus from the assholes making light of rape to...feminists making light of false rape accusations?! What the flying fuck? Funny, I don't recall that EVER being an issue...at least not on this blog. Besides, any person not-completely-divorced-from-reality is aware that men raping women is a MUCH more common phenomena than women falsely accusing men of raping them.

However, I can't totally hate on the guy. His betrayal of his knowledge of the commercials played during daytime tv prove what we already know-- the poor dude has no life. Why else would he spend so much time on a feminist blog when he claims to hate feminism?

From now on, let's stick to the golden rule: DON'T FEED THE TROLLS. (And call me hypocritical or mean-spirited, but I think what had to be said, had to be said.)

Felix, I'm banning you. You're well aware of our comments policy.

We don't deal with personal attacks, which you've done plenty of. If you want to do me a favor and save me some trouble tech wise you'll just go on your merry way. It would be appreciated.

Not do defend Felix or anything, but it was Fitz in the other post who said there was no such thing as a Jewish atheist, not Felix.

felix, that was a joke. you calling the woman at the center of the duke rape case a "slut" was quite serious. sorry you're disappointed, but i need to ensure the quality of my site and you're bringing it down.

rape always leaves permanent consequences.

it leaves fear, which we often seem to forget about. its a fear that is unique in its intensity and span. its a fear that may wane, but never really leaves.

what we all agree on, and what we should focus on, is that rape is wrong on so many levels and we each need to do what we can to prevent it, which includes taking it seriously whether it pertains to a certain case or not.

the response of these men was hurtful to both victims of rape and those who have been indirectly affected. its simply not something that should be made light of, whether it has become a part of pop culture or not.

Now don't get me wrong. I thought their costumes were funny and clever. I wasn't sure what about the costume left a bad taste in your mouth or others till reading the replies. I can offer a couple view points as a male.

1. They are making fun of the players, not the girls. Making fun of the victims is something in such bad taste even a most males would know not to "go there". But they chose to make fun of the players, which is parody. So qat least to most guys, they'd assume it was ok. Unntil reading the replies on here I wouldn't have thought it offensive eiher, and I am far from an A-hole.

2. Women tend to be over emotional about certain issues and men tend to be under emotional on many issues. Not in every case mind you. But in sensative issues like this we can see a clear divide in how the minds are wired differntly. Mind you, I think the reaction here is somewhere in between. Should the guys have made fun of an event where girls got raped. Prob. not but they chose at least to make it in a light hearted, parady of the idiot lacrosse players and take the "non-offensive" route (at least in a guys mind). Now, per the reactions should women who have never been raped bee reactiong in such a strong way at a joke that has no bearing on them or any event in their life? Probably not. I'd say the lack at ability to laugh at such a parady when it does not touch a personal chord in your life from a past event is probably on the over dramatic side. I'd say, lighten up a little, and at least take these guys intentions to mind, not their actions. They prob. meant it at a fun, poke at the players and their stupidity.

Again, the truth for both seems to reside in between the two reactions. I can say, most guys would hear their plan for dressing up and be like "man that's hilarious". Like I said, when I first heard about this I thought it was funny and non-offensive but then saw the reactions on here and at least was made ware someone might get offended. Prior to that, I wouldn't have figured many would (mind you there is always SOMEONE, man or woman that gets offended at everything). Maybe they should have passed the idea by thier female friends to see what they thought of it first? maybe their female friends thought it was funny too? Had they been chanting "no means yes" dressed as the rape victims, then yes, it's clear cut offensive. A paraody of some dumb jocks, poking fun at them. I'd say it could be offensive but a reach at best. Esp sicne you aren't mocking the victims and you ARE making fun of the ones that did it, I'd say one of those would be fine, but with both conditions in place, it's probably a safe bet it's not all that offensive, and that people may just be over reacting a bit to harmless fun.

Somewhat related to the topic at hand, this reminds me of a discussion I had with a friend the other week: when I first moved to NYC in 1994, I lived on Ludlow St. While not "dangerous" (at least in my eyes), it wasn't the carnival it is today. People in other areas would ask, "how can you LIVE down there??" Um, I don't know? Be respectful and kind to your neighbors and local proprietors? Exchange mutual nods of familiarity to the dealers on the corner (I actually felt pretty safe when they were around)?

Honestly, I'd only felt threatened two times during my time there. Both incidents involved white, drunken frat-type boys from Westchester (or wherever) loosed upon the LES for the weekend. It's truly frightening when one of these guys tries to follow you home.

i dont see it as necessary, even if some people may see it as funny, to participate in something that is so harmful to those of us who have expereinced it.

i understand what you mean about these men not directly making fun of the rape victims, but the chanting took it too far. it ceases to be a joke and becomes some sort of twisted affirmation. to a rape victim it seems as if the entire situation is a parody, which it isnt. its very real, and joking or not im dissapointed.

i think often people dont take enough time to think of the effects their actions may have (both men and women, feminist and not). i believe that in general in society today we are too quick to make light of important issues, and that in some way perpetuatues the belief that they are okay. i wish rape was something that could not be turned into a laughable situation, even if there was no harm intended.

I can see how they were mocking the players and not the victim and that in itself I have no issue with, but chanting "No means yes" as parody or for any other reason works directly against all the awareness people have been fighting so hard for pertaining to rape, molestation, etc.

I think it wouldn't have been so offensive if they'd have merely mocked the players, but chanting something like that, not only really strikes a chord with survivors of rape and abuse but with anyone who's done any work to try to raise awareness and actually convince the world that no does in fact mean no.

The San Francisco Chronicle today (Wednesday May 24) contained the following letter to the editor (I hope it's fair use to reprint it this way as the URL would have led to all the letters):
-----------------

Cruel realities

Editor -- Last Sunday, I joined fellow San Franciscans at the Bay to Breakers race. What should have been a fun day for all proved to be an uncomfortable, even scary, event for women to attend. My female companions and myself were groped and fondled by male participants. At one point, a male asked if he could touch me and when I responded "No,'' he grew angry and hostile, as if my mere attendance at the event required my surrender of the right to consent.

Perhaps the most troubling example of disrespect I witnessed was a group of men wearing "Duke Lacrosse'' T-shirts and chanting, "No means yes.''

To the men who attended Sunday's race: Never, ever touch a woman without her consent. It doesn't matter how she's dressed, and it doesn't matter how drunk she is. It is never OK. Rape is never funny. Your ignorance of gender, class and race issues is not funny.

You made the day less enjoyable for thousands and were a reminder of the cruel realities that all women, everywhere, face every day. For our sake and yours, educate yourself about these issues and become a better person.

ANDREA WRIGHT

-------------

I think that rather settles things as to the "ironic" intentions of the aforesaid participants. It seems to me that they were simply affirming an as-bad-as-you-wanna-be stance of unlimited entitlement. It is not something I ever hoped would be associated with San Francisco, and it's really a reflection of a kind of sick backlash mentality.

I wish I could say I was suprised by this level of stupidity but I am not. I deal with (White)men all the time that do not recognize any ones pain, and or their on priviledge in our society. They don't get it and probably feel that they don't have too.

I will also add this, there are some men who do get it and are working with us allies.

People react to pain in different ways.

Where you react with frustration and tears, some will react with humor and laughter.

Blah blah blah rape is horrible, power is bad, (white) men have it so easy.

The 1960's called, they want their perspective back.

Looks like feministing shut down the Duke thread. I would too if I were a feminist. Here is some new information for those interested in evidence:

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=local&id=4208878

"The woman who accused three Duke lacrosse players of raping her changed her story and appeared to fake being unconscious, according to a police report obtained Friday by Eyewitness News."

I just re-posted this once in another thread (This Sounds Familiar), as it seems more appropriate since the link shows EXACTLY why the police didn't take the AV seriously at first. Please feel free to delete it from this thread (Not. Fucking. Funny.), as it does not deal directly with the intended subject matter here.

Umm...I do understand the idea of these men making fun of the Duke rapists, but c'mon now. There's a time for jokes and this is NOT the time. I love satire, but this feels like yucky, ugly, careless idiocy.

You think that's bad, how about this:

You can now bet on the trial outcome. There are odds and everything. Now that's in bad taste.

"Should the guys have made fun of an event where girls got raped. Prob. not but they chose at least to make it in a light hearted, parady of the idiot lacrosse players and take the "non-offensive" route (at least in a guys mind). Now, per the reactions should women who have never been raped bee reactiong in such a strong way at a joke that has no bearing on them or any event in their life? Probably not. I'd say the lack at ability to laugh at such a parady when it does not touch a personal chord in your life from a past event is probably on the over dramatic side. I'd say, lighten up a little, and at least take these guys intentions to mind, not their actions."
So the only people who should show compassion and truly care about rape -by not letting it be "funny", and wanting those who comit it to be punished for there actions- are those who have been raped? "should women who have never been raped bee reactiong in such a strong way at a joke that has no bearing on them or any event in their life?" Probably not if your assuming that it hasn't impacted their life. BUT IT DOES. Women ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS have this in their life. We never know if that guy who is walking a few feet behind us is just listening to his i-pod or waiting for an opportunity to assualt us. You say that is an over reaction? That considering the possibility that almost every man you see or come in contact with on a daily basis could rape you is being paranoid. I say it's being realistic and prepared. You aren't a woman, therefore you can never comprehend the terrible fear that is ALWAYS present, regardless of whether or not it's happened before that one day, he won't just be listening to his music, he'll be thinking about the best place to pull you off the street. That is the fucking reality. So you'll understand if we don't think it's being a "over-dramatic"

"Should the guys have made fun of an event where girls got raped. Prob. not but they chose at least to make it in a light hearted, parady of the idiot lacrosse players and take the "non-offensive" route (at least in a guys mind). Now, per the reactions should women who have never been raped bee reactiong in such a strong way at a joke that has no bearing on them or any event in their life? Probably not. I'd say the lack at ability to laugh at such a parady when it does not touch a personal chord in your life from a past event is probably on the over dramatic side. I'd say, lighten up a little, and at least take these guys intentions to mind, not their actions."
So the only people who should show compassion and truly care about rape -by not letting it be "funny", and wanting those who comit it to be punished for there actions- are those who have been raped? "should women who have never been raped bee reactiong in such a strong way at a joke that has no bearing on them or any event in their life?" Probably not if your assuming that it hasn't impacted their life. BUT IT DOES. Women ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS have this in their life. We never know if that guy who is walking a few feet behind us is just listening to his i-pod or waiting for an opportunity to assualt us. You say that is an over reaction? That considering the possibility that almost every man you see or come in contact with on a daily basis could rape you is being paranoid. I say it's being realistic and prepared. You aren't a woman, therefore you can never comprehend the terrible fear that is ALWAYS present, regardless of whether or not it's happened before that one day, he won't just be listening to his music, he'll be thinking about the best place to pull you off the street. That is the fucking reality. So you'll understand if we don't think it's being a "over-dramatic"

Having come to this site for the first time, this forum interested me. And as someone who has been the victim of a rape that was so traumatic I had my uterus punctured, this is an important topic to me. But, it quickly became meaningless and boring. Why? Because of a woman-hating individual who calls himself Felix; and who apparently has such a pathetic life that annoying female posters is the most exciting thing he can think of. Even worse he is being allowed to post his nonsense here. Why doesn't he look for a misogynists forum? But, even worse than that, these women are responding to him. Haven't any of you heard that it's best to ignore ignorance? Don't bother replying for my sake, I'm not coming back.