This guy is talking about racism?! His name is Mr. Snow for god's sake, he can't possibly any whiter. This is so absurd.

um, I'm kind of speechless on this one. what a huge, huge, HUGE asshole.

Yeah! That guy is white male! What the hell is he doing commenting on race?

White men are not allowed to talk about any thing to do with race even there own, because white men are always racist and prejudice and their thoughts and ideas always hide the evil white man agenda.

Why would we want to move forward as a human race when we can instead constantly focus on the past to inspire guilt and hate! Even going as far as making up race issues, like a racist hurricane can only be good for us, that was priceless and it sold so many papers! Perpetuated “the mans� evil and Spike lee is going to be rich!

Cynthia McKinney is not an example of how a society based on victim logic and a sick obsession with past atrocity can actually perpetuate racism and can create people that exploit white guilt and white hatred to to further their agenda or excuse thier ill actions. That cop was WHITE and had a PENIS hello people???? He is white and a cop so he is a racist this should be law!

No, to try to move forward in the name of unity would be foolish and our civil rights leaders and feminist leaders would also be out of jobs!!!!

We must keep making up incidents of racism and we must keep dwelling on the past because white men will always be racist and prejudice evil people.

How dare he speak!

So who wants to place bets that Hujo is a white male? ;-)

Wow, Hujo. Hit a sore spot? You don't think that perhaps a privileged white guy isn’t the best person to judge the state of racism in America? Seriously?

I think a more calm and rational way of expressing what (I fervently hope) is at the core of Hujo’s message is; rather than simply implying that a white man can’t possibly know anything about racism, nor should he have the temerity to speak to it; it would have been better to provide some example of why his statement on racism is blatantly wrong, maybe from some of those leading authorities Mr. Snow says don’t exist. However, as someone who travels to the US occasionally for business I am not sure how anyone can say racism does not exist at some level, whether it is overt racism or systemic I am in no position to say.

Tony Snow needs to get out more.

Am I the only one hoping he busts out some bad, barely-intelligible rhymes the first time a reporter uses the word "informer" at a press conference?

There are a lot of people that believe racism/sexiam is dead because you can openly speak about such topics in the public sphere, because there are occasional articles addressing the subjects, because as a society we have labeled them "bad". They just don't understand the difference between identifing a problem and actually tackling it.

Hey! I'm a white male, in my 40's, straight, middle class. I'm not a racist, and I'm a feminist too. Am I the exception? Probably, but I'm not the only one I know. I'm not opposed to racism out of shame, I beleive in justice and wish we, as a society, could get beyond this. Just saying racism is not a problem any more isn't going to do it. Anyway, my point is this: Hujo's broad brush attach isn't going to drive me to the right and make me abandon my progressive views, but if you want to change hearts and minds you can start by not lumping those of us who abhore such behavior with the animals who perpetrate such acts. Racists and non-racists don't divide neatly on racial lines.

White men are not allowed to talk about any thing to do with race even there own, because white men are always racist and prejudice and their thoughts and ideas always hide the evil white man agenda.

especially there's strong documentation of race-motivated hate crimes, racial profiling (PDF), a secretary of education offhandedly suggests genocide as a way of controlling crime (he didn't really mean it, though)...

the list goes on. more white people use and sell drugs than people of color, yet poc's are overwhelmingly targeted by the "war on drugs"...

so, yeah, there's plenty more where that came from...

and, gregg, i have three things to say... first, you're spot on that racism doesn't just go away because we say so. and your commitment to justice is commendable.

personally, i don't think it's possible to not be a racist in this society. i do think it's possible to be anti-racist while recognizing our own racisms and benefits (willing or not) from institutional racism.

further, i don't think it's constructive to call other people "animals". on one hand, it proscribes degenerate behavior to animals and, on the other, it precludes our collective liberationo including all people... all beings... much love...

heights heights

"Wow, Hujo. Hit a sore spot? You don't think that perhaps a privileged white guy isn’t the best person to judge the state of racism in America? Seriously?"

What? Better a privileged black man like Kane West or Jessie Jackson?

Are you exposing a belief that racism only comes from white men?

Reading this site you could sure as hell think you believe that.

Weather it be black power, girl power or white power they are all superior minded exclusive and self-segregating philosophies.

Maybe it's that white men already learned that lesson?

If a white man hits a black women he is a racist and sexist if a black congresswomen hits a white man she is a victim of racism and sexism?

C'mon jess, you don't see the hypocrisy?

Puck, good points. I hesitated with the animals phrase, but, oh well.

I have to disagree about it not being possible to not be a racist in our society. I won't be a fool and claim that my thoughts are always pure, or that I have never benefited being a white male. That said, however, I cannot support the notion that one cannot avoid being a racist in some form. If a vegetarian of 10 years lapses once, does that invalidate the ten years? Would she be expected to qualify her claim to be a vegetarian? I don't think so. So if an anti-racist person slips and has a racist tinged thought, I wouldn't condemn them to wear a scalet letter. I sincerely believe we can learn, even rehabilitate our darker impulses. The act of trying and working toward that goal is a big step forward for an individual, and society will change in increments as individuals change, one by one.

Puck

No doubt racism exists, but to pretend it is only from whites attacking minorities is a joke.

Was I the only one that saw the black author/ dr. advocating the extermination of whites on c-span after hurricane Katrina?

Was I the only one that heard the applauses?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46992

The black community denounced him and so her black peers did not support Cynthia McKinney just as many whites denounce David Duke.

I think the point is where racism used to be a cultural norm it is now practiced only by extremists and denounced by the majority of all colors.

Progress. That we should acknowledge.

Perpetuating the stereotype that only whites are racist is the same as stating blacks are drug users or criminals, exact same thing.

Hujo, quick quiz:

Name one case when a group of black cops beat up a white person and got off, despite witness testimony and photos.

Name one state that has the death penalty in which a white person convicted of killing a black one is statistically as likely to be put to death as a black person killing a white one.

See, the problem here--though you doubtless already know this, and are just enjoying tossing feces--is that "girl power" or "black power" as "superior minded exclusive and self-segregating philosophies" lack the authority of the state that white racism among cops, judges, jurors, executives, politicians and the like does.

Bonus points: What's the ratio of white Fortune 500 CEOs to non-white ones?

I think that the point is well made, in this thread and others, that these issues are complex and need to be addressed with sensitivity and respect. Both acknowledging our own privilege, and most of us likely have some form of privilege, be it class, gender, ethnicity, education etc., and also by having a genuine desire to challenge our own assumptions and give up some of that privilege.

And of course there is a problem of members of the dominant group (those in power) speaking in ignorance of the lived experience of others.

Part of the problem with racism, as well as sexism, is that much of it is invisible and therefore hard to point to. I will speak more to sexism because that is an area that I am more familiar with, but I think there are parallels with racism. There is much in the way of legal and social sanctions to overt sexism, which does not mean that it has disappeared, but that it is more intangible. This is not about being a 'conspiracy theorist', but to point to the lived experience of those belonging to marginalized groups who still experience sexism/racism etc. but have trouble being able to directly point to an event or comment. This also speaks to quotes from people like Snow, ‘racism doesn’t exist because people aren’t legally discriminated against’, which is quite naïve and dangerous. It becomes increasingly difficult to fight for the rights of marginalized groups because the ‘oppression’ is increasingly invisible. Of course this doesn’t mean there still aren’t overt forms of racism (such as the terrible beating/sodomizing of a young man for being Hispanic).

So doc amazing what is your final solution?

Advocating whites are racists will what? Help society?

Racism obsolete, hardly.
But I have to look at where the flames are consistantly fanned rather than allow it to die out. This cluster of comments comes to mind, as do the bandwagons at other like sites.

Actually, Snow has a point. No sensible person does support racism. However, I wouldn't say that most people are sensible.

He is white and a cop so he is a racist this should be law!

Are you from eastern Canada, Hujo?

No, I am a prairielily like you, and I am being cynical in that statement.

Well. Here I am biting. What does my geography have to do with this

"But I have to look at where the flames are consistantly fanned rather than allow it to die out."

If the ignorance of Tony Snow did not exist, there would be no need for the post and these comments. People should discuss racism and sexism until racism and sexism go away. Women and people of color will discuss racism and sexism until women and people of color are treated like human beings.

“Here’s the unmentionable secret: Racism isn’t that big a deal any more. No sensible person supports it. Nobody of importance preaches it. It’s rapidly becoming an ugly memory.�

“Here’s the unmentionable secret: Racism isn’t that big a deal any more. "

Obviously this is untrue.

"No sensible person supports it."
Wow thats an entirely agreeable statment you know any senible racists?

"Nobody of importance preaches it."
Please enlighten me obviously they are not in the mainstream, who is preaching rasism and not being laffed at or scorned?

“It’s rapidly becoming an ugly memory."
If it is not, that is the goal right?

I contend every race has been racist, human wars were racist, we all warred with other races, we all concurred and then whitey made the gun and here we are, we evolve and progress, we try to move toward a multi cultural egalatarian society.

Only our cultural obsession over race and our medias jumping at every possible chance to play the race card in order to boost interest and ratings stagnate that effort. There is this refusal to realize that in every culture, regardless of race, the elite grow corrupt and oppress, there are many uneducated, unprivileged, uncared for people of every color under the American government and a cursory glance at global governments will tell you no race governs without oppression and corruption.

It is the HUMAN condition. Creating a hierarchy of oppression status and deeming all white men privileged, dismissing their opinions about race or our culture, just because they are white, is hypocritical, racist, and a sure way to stagnate our progress toward ending racism.

hujo,
you're a moron. who said anything about "advocating whites are racists"? i mean, really, why don't you actually read what people wrote instead of hallucinating what you'd like to be indignant about.

as if whites were the only racists out there. you know, if you could pull your head out of your "white males are the real victims" asshole for a minute, you'd realize that racism is pretty damn ubiquitous - and not just among white people.

if you really care about "ending racism", you'll be willing to square off with it rather than just wishin it away.

gregg,
first off, your sincerity is disarming. next, check out ts's post a bit. i think it sheds a fair amount of light on this: racism is not black and white (oh, in so many ways)... if you are vegetarian, you can just not eat meat and be done with it. racism is ingrained in our consciousness from day one. clearly, the process of stepping away from it is not so simple as, say, deciding to stop eating meat.
you see, racism is not just overtly discriminating against people, it's not just saying unkind words and it's not just caring who you live next to. it's also abou thow you listen. it's about what your experience is.
and, in my opinion, to be truly anti-racist means to recognize, confront and struggle with the racist and privileged tendencies we constantly manifest as white people (this extends to classism, sexism, etc.)

mind you, there are several definitions of racism and this is one... the one you're using is one as well, but this is a pretty important distinction, in my opinion.

heights.

Puck Wrote

"if you really care about "ending racism", you'll be willing to square off with it rather than just wishin it away."

On it..

Hujo wrote

"Only our cultural obsession over race and our medias jumping at every possible chance to play the race card in order to boost interest and ratings stagnate that effort."

hujo,

what do you say to the statistics i cited above?

i mean, really... have you got anything to say to the sort of overarching institutional racism that is clearly demonstrable or would you rather just focus on the media? those are just three examples. i'm sure, with your confounding understanding of how racism is over and done with (if it weren't for those dastardly media icons), you can easily unseat just those three examples. and you can add this to the list while you're at it.

love and hugs,
puck

Yes violence is wrong, I don’t know if every incidence of a white and black person fighting can be labeled a hate crime.

But when a black woman hits a white cop it is a hate crime though the white cop is somehow the racist in the situation.

You showed me one white bigot I showed you one black bigot.

Racial profiling affects everyone.

I am no friend to the elite that does indeed show signs of racism, and I am white, but I wouldn’t support people that write me off as privileged. Or put me last on the list of oppression status. The elite is not a large % of society.

Lighten up puck you dont see me flinging personal insults.

Here's my problem with all of this: I really resent someone telling me that discrimination is not a problem when I live through it everyday. I especially resent it when someone who is not identified as a person of color does this and does not provide any significant evidence.

"No sensible person supports it."
“Wow thats an entirely agreeable statment you know any senible racists?�

Yes. Perfectly smart, otherwise loving people can be racist. Racism is not always extremist like beating someone; it can be simple demeaning looks and hurtful or harassing comments. And I'll tell you these kinds of remarks and actions do come from people of all races.

"Nobody and can be of importance preaches it."
“Please enlighten me obviously they are not in the mainstream, who is preaching rasism and not being laffed at or scorned?�

Racism, as someone mentioned it, is much more complex and invisible in nature than it used to be. An example someone gave me was the following and I apologize because its a crime example. While someone might not say all Latinos and Blacks should be jailed because they're criminals, laws that harshly punish the kinds of crimes or drugs these minority groups tend to do and not those that whites tend to do, can be seen as a racist action by some.

“It’s rapidly becoming an ugly memory."
“If it is not, that is the goal right?�

If racism is an ugly memory than why do people say such ignorant sh** to me as a woman of color? Why have I met white people who will say things about other people of color because "I'm not like those people"? Besides stopping talking about race isn’t going to make it go away until race stops actually meaning anything. Any since race is so intimately tied with class, gender, sexual identity, etc, we’ll have to get rid of those too.

“Only our cultural obsession over race and our medias jumping at every possible chance to play the race card in order to boost interest and ratings stagnate that effort.�

Well what should we as individuals do then? How exactly do we move forward? Is ending all conversation really going to fix anything or move us in another direction?

First of all are we talking about a national horizon or a global horizon? It seems clear implicitly that Mr. Snow is talking about a national horizon. While I disagree with him on that level, I also disagree with the implicit assumption in his comments that racism ends at America's shores, for no sensible person, in his words, still believes that America is an island. Nor are the two mutually exclusive of one another. If a million people were being slaughtered in Europe rather than Sudan do you think we would have stood by and not done a thing?

Secondly, racism, like sexism, is predominately structural and implicit. That is, it is overwhelmingly not composed solely of specific conscious actions on the part of individuals intending to be racist, but rather propagated by people who cognitively renounce racism but who conform to social system that nevertheless propagates it.

Segregation is a perfect, if obvious, example, because in my experience adolescence is the first time that race as a social structure is consciously created in our lifetimes. People who self-segregate at adolescence, as a deliberate choice (and an overwhelming majority do) are cognitively convinced of their anti-racism but nonetheless conform themselves proactively to a racist outcome through cultural rationalizations. The urge is overwhelming to "conform" and this means being racist. The effort of the individual to struggle against this tide during high school is virtually hopeless. Once racialism is recognized, then identification splinters into racial social groups and the floodgates have opened for racism, which therefore inevitably follows. We pay lip service to anti-racism while the racist social structures continue to exist. To destroy them would in the long run be to eliminate the very concept of race, and this is frightening to many people.

First of all are we talking about a national horizon or a global horizon? It seems clear implicitly that Mr. Snow is talking about a national horizon. While I disagree with him on that level, I also disagree with the implicit assumption in his comments that racism ends at America's shores, for no sensible person, in his words, still believes that America is an island. Nor are the two mutually exclusive of one another. If a million people were being slaughtered in Europe rather than Sudan do you think we would have stood by and not done a thing?

Secondly, racism, like sexism, is predominately structural and implicit. That is, it is overwhelmingly not composed solely of specific conscious actions on the part of individuals intending to be racist, but rather propagated by people who cognitively renounce racism but who conform to social system that nevertheless propagates it without ever challenging that system.

Self-segregation is a perfect, if obvious, example, because usually adolescence is the first time that race as a social structure is willfully, pro-actively self-created. People who self-segregate at adolescence (and an overwhelming majority do) are cognitively convinced of their anti-racism but nonetheless conform themselves proactively to a racist outcome through cultural path-dependency. The urge is overwhelming to "conform" and this means being racist. The effort of the individual to struggle against this tide-- indeed against any social norm or socioeconomic structure-- is virtually hopeless. Simply by maximizing my income and choosing the best possible neighborhood where I might send my children to public school causes me to be a participant in racial balkanization, racial alienation, and contribute toward racist outcomes. Therefore the solution to racism must be political. It cannot be personal.

When social and personal identification splinters into racial groups and the floodgates have opened for personal racism, but the social costs this fragmentation and racial alienation imposes on society are enormous by themselves, especially for racial minorities who must sacrifice between cultural conformity and socioeconomic status.

Thus we pay lip service to anti-racism while the racist social structures continue to exist. To destroy them would in the long run be to eliminate the very concept of race, and this is frightening to many people.

Well, I'm sure I don't agree with this Snow guy on much. But I do see his point.

Institutionalized racism has become a thing of the past. And no politicians these days are advocating a return to the past.

Of course there are still many people who are terribly racist. So it is wrong to say that racism itself has disappeared.

I know many people will argue that racial inequalities proves that racism is systematic. But they don't.

That said I do think that the legacy of slavery is still playing out in our society, even though it seems like all that stuff was like a million years ago. (Not because the system is still biased, but because of inherited wealth issues, and entrenched cultural attitudes.)

(That's my opinion. Take it or leave it. I have nothing more to add on this subject.)

hujo,
please excuse me for flying off the handle, but i don't hold composure well when people like me completely disregard the experience of other people to protect their misguided view that they owe nothing in their lives to privilege and institutional racism.
that veronica, for one (only one out of many poc's in this dialogue) has to go out of her way to share her experience and you may even ignore that, makes me feel really nauseated...

tragula,

Institutionalized racism has become a thing of the past.

peace and blessings

Hujo, I would think that as a western Canadian, you're well aware of the systemic oppression the First Nations people deal with on a daily basis, including on the part of the police.

Yes, Veronica, people who are otherwise smart and loving can be racist, but since I don't believe that marginalising entire groups of people is in of itself sensible, I don't regard those people as sensible. Keep in mind that there are many brilliant, loving people who have very little common sense, and you'll see where I'm coming from.

I think I'm more in agreement with puck's earlier statements - that everyone carries the scars of racism in some form or another. Esp in the US, white people have some work to do on the attitudes they have inherited from their culture. Whether we (white people) admit it or not, consciously and unconsciously we participate and benefit from racism. That is a really hard statement to make or to own, and the majority of white people would jump to disagree and deny, but I really think that being anti-racist is lifetime work, not simply about "I never stereotype anyone! I totally see people as individuals!" Never as simple as that. You have to take a hard look at yourself and your life, before saying that.

I have to suggest the following reading: http://www.cwru.edu/president/aaction/UnpackingTheKnapsack.pdf

I also want to post something I had put up on the comments of the other long dialogue on the intersection of feminism and racism, because no one has addressed it there and I'm really curious to see all your reactions to it.

In the def of racism i have learned, (particularly in us and western culture), it is not possible for a person of color to be racist against a white person. While racism is a belief system that deems one group superior to another, what sets it apart from mere prejudice is the power. Racism has been written into our laws - has been given tangible systemic validation to the point where it has direct consequences on peoples lives - where they work, what they make, where they live, their education and on and on and on. If a black person hates all white people, they are being prejudiced, but not racist.

As stated before, there are many definitions, but this one has raised the most controversy and objection. Before the whities among us knee jerk and deny, please consult the peggy mcintosh article and think on it a bit. I'm curious for feedback.

em!, how is it not racist in itself to assume that only "whities" would "deny" your personal definition (or Peggy McIntosh's) of racism, particularly "If a black person hates all white people, they ... not racist"?

Let's unpack what you're trying to get at.

The assertion that "what sets [racism] apart is the power" is somewhat true, although even those who are traditionally less powerful are nonetheless not entirely powerless. Secondly, that racially unequal social structures attitudes are an inevitable result of racial social identification is also true (which I think was the point of McIntosh's article), but it is not necessarily true that even the disadvantaged would give up their racial identity in order to alleviate those disadvantages.

However, neither of these things indicates that "racism has been written into our laws." Rather, if there is any segment in American society where Mr. Snow may be right, then it is the nominal expression of formal law. And to equate legal status with "tangible systemic validation" is misleading- the two are entirely separate, and one does not necessarily lead to another nor should the two necessarily be associated.

But what I find most objectionable is your definition of racism. Conventionally, it is defined simply as "a discrimination or prejudice based on race." Words are the building blocks of thought and should be as simple as possible. I appreciate the points in the article you listed, but if you can't have a deeper discussion of race without redefining the term into something more convoluted, then you're at a disappointing level of reflection to begin with.

I'm in a hurry but I wanted to clarify that what I wrote is not my "personal definition," and not a "convoluted redefinition." I actually learned this definition in social work school. Sorry if it was badly worded, but it is really a definition that is out there in the world. So take it as you may, but don't tell me I have a dissapointing level of reflection because you think the definition is wrong. I didn't come up with it! But it is certainly food for thought.

Puck wrote
hujo,
please excuse me for flying off the handle, but i don't hold composure well when people like me completely disregard the experience of other people to protect their misguided view that they owe nothing in their lives to privilege and institutional racism.
that veronica, for one (only one out of many poc's in this dialogue) has to go out of her way to share her experience and you may even ignore that, makes me feel really nauseated...

I am spose to answer everyone within seconds, anything for a smear??

Veronica admits racism is universal, I think that was her, you seem to need to convince me it is only ever from whites and I laugh at that, hard!

I have no white guilt, or man guilt, I am a free man. I am not even 30, I have never oppressed anyone, and unlike you, I am proud of what I have worked for and do not believe anything was giving to me because of my skin color. Don’t let ati-male feminists or anti-white black activists tell you your work is less important because you are white.

You too can be proud of who you are even though you are, an “evil� white man.

Prairie lily wrote

Hujo, I would think that as a western Canadian, you're well aware of the systemic oppression the First Nations people deal with on a daily basis, including on the part of the police.

Example? I am a friend to cops?

The Indians were warring amongst themselves when the white man came to North America. My ancestors were in Scotland at the time being oppressed by other white people.

(Ohhh the queen owes me something!!! I am oppressed all these centuries later as well!!! Pay up Elisabeth!!! You white hating racist!!!)

My father was a soldier and mother a bank teller they came from farm families and worked along side people of color, OHHH the white privilege!

You know we gave the first nation people their own land, free university and reduced taxes right?

Really, what would you have the white men do? We should all commit ritual suicide to make up for the atrocities of our long dead ancestors? Women benefited from that dark period of time and still do.

I think the point is; dwelling on the past and holding “whiteys� great great grand children’s nose in the piss, is only good for civil rights leaders and feminists, part of moving on and evolving is looking at the now and realizing much great change has happened and that the majority of people are not racist.

Only examining modern racism as a “white thing�, is an example of our twisted politically correct hypocritical cultural mindset.

Hujo wrote
“Only our cultural obsession over race and our medias jumping at every possible chance to play the race card in order to boost interest and ratings stagnate that effort.�

Veronica wrote
Well what should we as individuals do then? How exactly do we move forward? Is ending all conversation really going to fix anything or move us in another direction?

Great post I agree with everything you say, if you look at events like Katrina, Cynthia McKinney or even this duke scandal, we can see the press has a tendency to cry race at any provocation, this is irresponsible and stagnates any effort to view the real picture, it is also played along the white on black lines, when whites are shot or beaten by blacks it is usually an assault not a hate crime.

Yes racism is real and we should deal with it, just making up an issue when it is not there, or making it all a white mans problem is doing nothing but making some news people and film makers rich at the expense of society.

I do feel that saying “look how far we have come� is not bad but positive.

50 plus years ago America was segregated and rasism a casual part of life, now racist are looked down upon by the majority of people, we have come a long way, of course it could be much better, but there has been a lot of progress.

Is that not good?

http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/show/index.html

http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/show/episode1.html

(sorry for all the posts, I oopsed, I wanted this link instead)

I am spose to answer everyone within seconds, anything for a smear??

i'm sorry you feel so maligned, but you completely missed my point. plenty of other people on here have said very similar things and yet you've disregarded them. i was merely projecting into the future my lack of hope that you'd actually pay any attention to what veronica said. and that makes me sick. it also makes me a little upset that you think everyone's out to get you. i mean, remember when you thought you were being censored? why can't you actually just read what i write instead of considering it an attack (albeit, when i called you a moron, that was an attack and you have my sincerest apologies)

Veronica admits racism is universal, I think that was her, you seem to need to convince me it is only ever from whites and I laugh at that, hard!

stop laughing. when have i ever said that racism is only from whites?

so you can read it again, i wrote, "personally, i don't think it's possible to not be a racist in this society." i didn't qualify it by saying that only whites are racist and/or only men are sexist. racism and sexism informs the points of view of everyone in this sick society.

i mean, really. you have quite a time arguing with folks who don't exist - you pick apart arguments i've never made. it's really frustrating to have to deal with that.

Don’t let ati-male feminists or anti-white black activists tell you your work is less important because you are white.

do you think i'm not proud of my work? do you even know what my work is? do you know anything about me? no. do you think i think my work is any less important because of anything?

well, it's not. and, let me tell you, admitting that white privilege or male privilege is a reality does not mean you have to feel guilty. it does not mean you have to own up to being "evil". it's none of those things.

it is recognizing tha there are forces that value your contributions more than other people's and there are traumatic circumstances you aren't exposed to that other people are.

it is about learning to truly listen to what other people have to say and not going off on some tirades about how oppressed you are as a white man and how people of color are "playing the race card".

have you even read any of the stuff i or anyone else has linked to? please do at some point, you might find it somewhat interesting.

as far as jared diamond is concerned, that's some ish right there... you read guns, germs and steel? it's a pretty wild book... 40,000 years of human history in a digestible format... and his thesis is pretty mindblowing.

what i think you're getting at, though, once again, has nothing to do with the what anyone else is saying. i, certainly, am not saying that men or white people are essentially evil or bad or oppressive... only that social circumstances have placed us all in a matrix of power relationships and, in order to more fully love and support one another, we need to recognize that - and the subtle ways it works...

among other things, white guys like you and i need to realize that, while our work is worth all of our pride, there are people doing work just as brilliant who are not meeting with the same success because of the intervention of racial, class, and gender dynamics.

if we don't own up to that, no progressive conversation can happen between people from different social locations.

further, this isn't about whether or not you've "oppressed" anyone or whether or not white men should "commit ritual suicide to make up..." for all kinds of messed up shit.

the solution is that white people and men, particularly, although all people, really, need to learn better to listen to people from other places, and not write off their perspectives as "man-hating" or "playing the race card", but really listen to what other people's experiences are.

how many more ways can i put it?

"This guy is talking about racism?! His name is Mr. Snow for god's sake, he can't possibly be any whiter. This is so absurd."

Maybe you could take some of your own advice and read what other members are saying.

Racism: A thing of the past.
Ethnocentrism: A thing of the present.
Tolerant Multiculturalism: A thing of the future.

Who ended slavery in America and Europe?
White men.
Is slavery still practiced pretty regulary in Africa, Asia, South America and other places where white men were not in power?
Yes.
Which culture most actively supports equality among sexes?
Western Civ. (White men, pretty much.)
Are extreme forms of sexism still practiced regularly in Africa, Asia, and South America and other places etc?
Yes.
Instead of attacking so called "white men" maybe we should try to join all the "Good ole boys clubs" we can since they're the ones changing the world for the better!

Tom, that is mind-bogglingly both misleading and simplistic. Western slavery was begun exclusively by white men, who were in the power structure at the time. In the U.S., abolition was more a tool of military propaganda than a principled stance against slavery. In fact, whites in the south seceded to preserve slavery, while whites in the north created the Republican party out of a desire to keep blacks out of the territories-- for both racist and economic reasons. The Civil War was about competing racisms with northern racism winning out over southern racism. The real abolitionist movement was a combination of white men, white women, and former black slaves, and was used as more of a propaganda tool for larger forces than being a decisive force in and of themselves.

Elsewhere in the world, slavery or conditions equivalent to slavery exist everywhere in the world including America in the form of sex trafficking. The practice of either slavery or equivalent conditions are heavily correlated with per capita GDP-- the lower per capita GDP, the more likely slavery will continue to exist. One of the best ways to fight slavery indirectly then, is economic development in poor regions.

You have hit on something by bringing up Western civilization, although you are talking about not the whole of it but the liberal strand of it, as opposed to the Judeo-Christian strand, which opposes gender equality, or the socialist strand, which is in between. But this is getting off topic...

Tony, you are or will be a great middle manager.

You've found numerous excuses and side arguments not to give credit where credit is due.

White western civilization, male dominated up until about 90 years ago, and not by any stretch of the imagination flawless, has always been for the most part and continues to be, the world leaders in spreading the concepts of equality, freedom, literacy, economic development, and enlightened reason, while maintaining religious freedoms.

I hate to say this, but Tom is kind of right. Men before the 18th century were really a large pack of bastards, but it is due to white males that much of what Tom said is being spread through the world.

The original reason that the vote was given to the common people in Britain (if i remember my old schooling correctly) is due to the fear of the elite upper class white males fear of a revolution, much like the french. This led to white men paving much of the way for further steps towards equality such as womens suffrage, complete bans on slavery and other. Yes, white men a fair while ago were bastards. Many white men since the early 1900's are good, decent people.

Hmm... this is quite interesting to say the least. You have taken on such a gargantuan topic-- attempting to define and explain the broadest contours of human history and civilization-- that it would take practically the whole of social science to reach a conclusion. Now I know this is a blog and we are people and thus we are looking for simple answers. I know we do not suffer from actual arguments about the details of the civil war or any details whatsoever. I know that we do not actually respond to what the other person posted but resort to making broader and broader generalizations whenever we cannot answer the point. Nevertheless, I am torn between dragging myself down to your level and recognizing borderline trollish behavior. The broadest and most simple responses to your point, Tom, are to point out that the agricultural revolution was equally, if not more, important to human history than the industrial one, firstly, and the gross inhumanities commited by imperialism, fascism, and communism, secondly, not to mention common every day experience. However, I doubt that any response would be given to my points, and even if they were, the points are too broad to be adequately addressed in a blog.

Oh, err one more thing. This entire discussion has racist premises.

"and the gross inhumanities commited by imperialism, fascism, and communism, secondly, not to mention common every day experience. "

Yes but what is wrong with looking at the positive aspects in the now?

My therapist tells me we can certainly learn from our past however dwelling on the past and past failures is neurotic it only makes one feel ashamed of ones self.

She says to instead take "inventory" of the positive aspects of my life in the now, focusing on what I have accomplished instead of where I have failed.

She says this will improve my ability to tackle challenges in the future because it puts the focus on where I went right. Instead of being schooled by failure you become schooled by success.

I don't know if this relates or I just forgot to take my pills, but she also tells me sharing is positive!!

As far as germs and steel, I just wanted to relate that the barbaric past happened it really was out of the future generations control, we all exhibited hunter warrior like traits in our past, we all aspired to concur, it is reasonable to say european people lucked out. Would other races have created the same world we live in had they had the same head start on civilization in a time more heavily based on territorial power, I think so.

So we are here looking at the now. The goal and solutions to creating harmony must be looked at and executed properly all factors and angles need to be considered.

Individuals do exploit race issues and tensions in order to make money or further agenda. This is an act of prejudice; it capitalizes on and creates prejudice.This directly stagnates the solution as it clouds issues and discredits them.

It is hard to measure racism because the large majority of us experience and absorb our ideas about racism from the media, not denying its existence or the hurt it causes, but you can’t deny that the media in general, to a degree, and defiantly news and talk shows are a "nasty people filter".

Just think about it, I’ve done no formal study, but I think it is fair to say there is a disproportional amount of racists, murderers, spouse abusers, child molesters, corrupt racist politicians, and all sorts of nasty folk in these genres than there is in our day to day lives, this gives society an over inflated sensationalized view of many cultural phenomenon and certainly one like racism.

This and medias portrayal of race including whites being the dominate racists or always the privileged upper class office types in fictional media as well as blacks being gangstas or criminals both are negative and not necessarily fair representations.

Like racism itself these things are hard to study, I feel they deserve focus, without writing off young white males or anyone as being inherently privileged, that is a very unfair label for many white people. As labels based on concepts not realities most defiantly are unfair for anyone.

In the field I work in, my competitors are Syrian, Iraqi, African, and more, whites are the majority of population, and the majority in the field, everyone does as well or better or worse, those of any color that work less make less. This is not strange for Canada. There is racism here, I am white, and I may be biased to pick up on the white stereotypes more. The privileged thing is the perpetuated liberal view of white males here but I am more of the impression that is becoming incorrect at least in new generations or young people and therefore stereotypical view.

http://blogs.library.ualberta.ca/ednews/index.php/2006/04/05/340/

For America I recommend “the decline of males� by Lionel Tiger.

To say racism no longer exists is irresponsible, but it is fair to say the elite have allowed for progress and continue too, the racist elements or individuals are there, very obviously sometimes, but are they universal to every member in government or is it just certain groups within? More must be done but unparalleled social change has happened in a brief period of time.
Acknowledging this is positive, lets try to finish the job.

Exposing racism and punishing, violence, discrimination and corruption severely and promoting equality are what we should try to do. The blame label blame, game regarding people in general that are not all responsible for social corruption is childish and stagnating,it works against uniting all to end corruption, the people become divided along lines of gender and race it becomes more difficult for us to stand together.

"Maybe you could take some of your own advice and read what other members are saying."

Uhm, not that I should waste space or time here, but-duh-obviously I have been since I posted again the 28th. I am still reading and deciding whether to jump in again. Way to get off topic.

I was addressing puck, I was using your lovely post to illustrate puck was being hypocritical.

Individuals do exploit race issues and tensions in order to make money or further agenda. This is an act of prejudice; it capitalizes on and creates prejudice.This directly stagnates the solution as it clouds issues and discredits them.

Thanks, Jeeves. But this is what the guy said. You can throw out talking points like “the blame game� and try to insinuate yourself into trust by saying, “yes, this happened and this still happens, but this other thing does too, so lets talk about THAT� and deflect responsibility from those responsible for the topic at hand, but it doesn’t make it go away or any less important because - *gasp* - white heterosexual men get hurt too and don’t want to hear about what they benefit from directly or, in some cases, are responsible for perpetuating lest they have to face that some bad things are the fault of certain heterosexual white men.

Its that members like you and others challenge a white straight man’s (the enemy apparently) right to speak, you do this for lots of reasons, like I pointed out in that long post, that should have been my last, but I guess this will have to be.

The difference between you and me is I think everyone has a right to talk about it.

Derailing? Not exactly. I spoiled the "smear the privileged white guy" fest, I guess.

His “doesn't exist� quote is stupid, but this is an interesting thread about racism even though white guys are talking.

I have said all I have to say on it. So, smear away, it's ok, I'm white and male and I'm not gay. ; P

Hujo

Its that members like you and others challenge a white straight man’s (the enemy apparently) right to speak, you do this for lots of reasons, like I pointed out in that long post, that should have been my last, but I guess this will have to be.

It’s “straight white men� like you who don’t like criticism, want to be pious and insulting to everybody else but expect the best of treatment back, and then not wanting to be called out on your bullshit and disrespect.

The difference between you and me is I think everyone has a right to talk about it.

Man, get over yourself already. And while you’re at it, get a clue. Nobody is saying you “don’t have a right� to do something and you KNOW it. What is being pointed out is your constant derailing of the topic at hand, putting words in people’s mouths, and expect people to want to discuss a completely different one at the expense of the one at hand. In the process, you trivialize the current one.

Derailing? Not exactly. I spoiled the "smear the privileged white guy" fest, I guess.

That is exactly what you’re doing. You can’t handle that a straight white guy is being criticized for his ignorant comments, don’t want to see that something a straight white guy did or said that reflected badly on him is his fault, and now have to make into how he is the REAL victim here. He said it, he is getting shit for it, that is the way it goes. People need to be accountable for their actions, even straight white guys like you and this one.

I have said all I have to say on it. So, smear away, it's ok, I'm white and male and I'm not gay. ; P

Gee, give this guy a medal; he seems to want one.

Derailing? Not exactly. I spoiled the "smear the privileged white guy" fest, I guess.

That is exactly what you’re doing. You can’t handle that a straight white guy is being criticized for his ignorant comments, don’t want to see that something a straight white guy did or said that reflected badly on him is his fault, and now have to make into how he is the REAL victim here.

might i add that, more specifically, by focusing on mr snow as the victim, this conversation has been kept from actually developing into any real dialogue about current race issues and, in stead, has become focused on how "liberals" hate straight white men.

as far as your point to veronica where you, somehow were using her post to show how "hypocritical" i am... you just don't get it. she was pointing out how ridiculous it is for a rich white man (absurdly enough, named "mr snow") to announce that racism is over. and how, as privileged white person who doesn't have to think about race every day, he's really in no place to make such a statement.

she said nothing about white men being "evil" or anything of the sort. that was merely your defensive projection.

durga, right on... keep killin' them demons (oh, and let's see if hujo can read a personal attack into that one).

one last thing, as far as your statement that:

As far as germs and steel, I just wanted to relate that the barbaric past happened it really was out of the future generations control

derr... no one's arguing that you kept slaves or even that your great-grandparents did or anything like that. however, you are, by proxy, benefiting from a long line of imperialism and racism and oppression and all of that has left historical residue on the present. pretending that it doesn't exist is just helping to perpetuate it because it doesn't challenge the base of unequal exchange.

read the book again. tell me if it says that the recipients of privilege, regardless of their overt involvement in securing that privilege, bear no responsibility for making the world a more equitable place.

peace and blessings

Go fuck a duck puck, the topics brought up were interesting if a little off topic, they most certainly relate to everything else in the article except the one statement I admit was stupid and irresponsible.

We are obviously passionate about many conflicting points of view.

Why must I have to use tired clichéd buzzwords like ad hominem attack huh? That sucks man, real good job.

Now the election is over, so this means that this issue also is over? No, this will still continue because this will be a part of our history forever. We can see that Obama is really respected and love by people even whites, but this doesn't mean that racism is over. The New York Post may want to get payday loans to quell its recent squabbles. A cartoon featuring the corpse of a chimp, shot to death by police officers, with the caption stating that they need someone else to write the stimulus bill, which is the raft of payday loans to the nation, has sparked accusations of racism and protests. The Post has issued an apology stating that they didn't intend for that interpretation to be drawn, but there are still those who jumped to conclusions or are being overly sensitive. Regardless, the Post would definitely give a few No Fax Payday Loans worth of cash to hush the whole thing up.