The Blame Game

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39 Comments

  1. Jeremy Jensen
    Posted November 28, 2008 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

    Both the facts inferred and the logic used in this cartoon are highly flawed. First off, it’s funny that this cartoon is inferring that the African-American community is getting blamed for this prop and the Mormons are getting a pass, when, in fact, it is other way around. Mormons have been the ones getting the unrelenting media spotlight and their churches picketed, not African-American churches.
    It’s also funny that the cartoon mentions black people only being 10 percent of the population, so how could they have made the difference? Well, Mormons are only two percent of the population, so how could they have made the difference? Yes, Mormons donated a lot of money to the cause, but the No on 8 people still had more money overall.
    In any case, the fundraising picture does not change the fact that a huge majority of African-Americans voted against gay marriage. Since African-Americans are five times more numerous than Mormons in California, they made as much of a difference as the Mormons did, if not more so. If the No on 8 people could not convince African-Americans to vote for the prop even though the fundraising was slightly in their favor, it must be because African-Americans don’t believe in gay marriage.
    So, people, feel free to assign blame for the passage of this prop, but do so fairly. If you’re going to target Mormon churches, also target black churches that are against gay marriage. It’s hard for me to shake the feeling that gay activists are giving the black church a pass because it is politically risky, while targeting the Mormon church because it is politically safe. That strikes me as a particularly cowardly thing to do.
    And this is coming from someone who would not have supported Prop 8.

  2. Jennifer
    Posted November 28, 2008 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    I agree. People are up in arms over the media pointing out that 70% of the black vote went to ban gay marriage, claiming racism. I didn’t know that statistical facts could be called racist.
    I am very torn over this whole situation. I have always supported the civil rights movements and felt like I was playing a part in fighting against racism through my activism, but now I don’t know what to think.
    It seems that the majority of the black California population is liberal when it comes to helping themselves (civil rights) but conservative when it comes to the salvation of others (gay rights, women’s rights, etc.). This is the definition of hypocrisy. I am unhappy to say that most African-Americans I have met even on the east coast are VERY conservative about EVERYTHING… except things that have to do specifically with being black or any minority, like affirmative action.
    I can’t help but be angry that 70% of a population saw fit to complain about prejudice against themselves while oppressing another group.
    This DOES NOT make me racist. If I were to say I hate all blacks because of this, THEN I would be. To be angry about this situation is reasonable, and to call people like me racist for it is racist against anyone other than blacks, and to be a homophobe.

  3. a.k.a. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted November 28, 2008 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    To keep using the 70% of black voters statistic is illogical because being “black” was not the best predictor of whether one voted for Prop 8.
    Why don’t you find the percentage of “regular attending church-goers” or “Republicans” who voted for Prop 8? I’m betting that percentage would be at least as high, and would contain a far larger number of California voters total…

  4. thetestosteronewars
    Posted November 28, 2008 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    I agree with most of what you say.
    On the one hand, African-Americans are right to complain that they are often treated as one monolithic whole. “THE black church”, will “THE blacks riot . . .”, etc.
    On the other hand, when you vote 90%-95% for Democratic candidates and, unfortunately, 70% for Prop 8, you’re voting pretty monolithically. I don’t think it’s unfair consider them a coherant voting bloc.
    By comparison, Whites split on Prop 8 about 50/50 (narrowly against). To understand what happened here, we need to add another variable: party. White Democrats voted overwhelmingly against it (I think it was 80-20), and Republicans for it (again, about 80-20). This confirms what we already knew: Republicans are the enemy.
    No one seems to have any trouble blaming Republicans for advancing an anti-gay agenda. Ditto the Mormons, whose money and ground game were critical. But the third part of the winning coalition were African-American votes.
    Republicans and Mormons aren’t really separate groups (for voting purposes). The majority of Mormons are Republican. Mormons are frmily part of the enemies’ coalition.
    African-Americans, on the other hand, are usually part of the Democratic coalition. This makes their votes against the coalition upsetting. Further, their vote in favor of discrimination upsets those who feel the African-American’s civil rights struggles was the predecessor to the gay rights struggle.
    I understand and share much of this anger and upset. That said, I would NOT advocate the more confrontational protests be extended to African-American churches. Our efforts should be to bring them back into the coalition on this issue.
    To do this, we must admit that gay rights issues have been a tough sell to the African-American community. This vote is further evidence of what pollsters and many gay rights activists have been saying for a while.
    It’s not about blaming African-Americans; it’s about acknowledging we have work to do. The defensiveness is counterproductive. I’m tired of excuses being promoted, especially by a blog I usually appreciate.

  5. swearjar
    Posted November 28, 2008 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    you said that mentioning a set of set of statistics doesn’t make you a racist, ok. however, the following statement does:
    “It seems that the majority of the black California population is liberal when it comes to helping themselves (civil rights) but conservative when it comes to the salvation of others (gay rights, women’s rights, etc.). This is the definition of hypocrisy. I am unhappy to say that most African-Americans I have met even on the east coast are VERY conservative about EVERYTHING… except things that have to do specifically with being black or any minority, like affirmative action.”
    yes, feel free to generalize about a huge, diverse group of people because you’ve met some conservative black people. contrary to popular belief, we don’t all have the same political beliefs. no one would say anything similar about the “white male vote” because no one would even think to generalize about such a group. and yes, perpetuate the myth that (as addressed in the comic) these “groups” don’t intersect. not only are there plenty of black lgbt people, but there are plenty of black women. but no, black people don’t care about gay rights or women’s rights. because according to you, the groups are all mutually exclusive. good job!
    p.s. also, black people don’t care about women’s rights? try picking up a book about the mainstream feminist movement’s exclusion of women of color, working class women and lesbians (the so called “lavender menace”). or read the combahee river collective statement.
    or, i guess, choose to remain ignorant. your choice.

  6. Skemono
    Posted November 28, 2008 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    Everyone is going on that 70% African-Americans voted for Proposition 8. But, um, that might not be true either.

    Political analyst David Binder has compiled yet-to-be-released statistics on the vote for Proposition 8 based on ethnicity and found that the percentage of black voters who approved the amendment is smaller than originally thought, Minter said. A CNN exit poll indicated that about 69 percent of black California voters marked “yes” on Proposition 8, but the new data indicates that about 57 percent of black voters approved the amendment, he said. The revised statistic would be similar to what exit polls showed for voting patterns for other ethnicities, such as white and Latino voters.

  7. Alan
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 2:14 am | Permalink

    Taking the blame off of African Americans shouldn’t mean shifting it onto the Mormons. Both groups tend to vote in blocs and both groups voted Yes on 8. Blame, which is as unproductive as it is unpleasant, will of course be thrown at both of these groups.
    But the more important question is not who to blame, it’s this: how can we court these groups and persuade them to be more pro-gay?

  8. idiolect
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 3:25 am | Permalink

    *flinch*
    it’s funny that this cartoon is inferring that the African-American community is getting blamed for this prop and the Mormons are getting a pass, when, in fact, it is other way around.
    The cartoon (or rather, the author of the cartoon, I guess?) isn’t “inferring” anything, it’s asserting as a matter-of-fact that it is the case that the African-American community is getting blamed (and no, it’s not “funny” either). Maybe you disagree with this assertion — if so, you can just disagree with the assertion, it’s okay. You don’t have to get all convoluted with haughty passive-aggressive and/or pseudo-”logical” language like that.
    /pet peeve

  9. justsarahbarah
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 5:28 am | Permalink

    So about half of my GLBT friends when I came out in high school were Black or Latino (I’m white). We all met at the local gay youth group/support group. I don’t know if this situation is unique to St. Louis or to the gay youth community (which hasn’t yet factionalized along racial lines like older gay groups), but it is a reality I have never seen acknowledged in the media.
    That is why I am both baffled and angered at Feministing commenters talking about “blacks” and “hispanics” all voting against gay marriage. This language makes GLBT people of color, including my first girlfriend, COMPLETELY invisible. So, because she was black, she would have voted for Prop 8? Or wait, because she’s gay she’s not black? Also, some of my gay friends were raised Mormon and have not officially left the Church. So are they gay or Mormon now? Should they pick a side in order to fit in your box?
    I realize this may not be the intended message of these commenters, but it is implied. Please, please stop such generalizing. It doesn’t help the gay rights cause and it doesn’t really help anyone.

  10. Alan
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 7:23 am | Permalink

    Sarah,
    I think people on here are generally sensitive about the existence of LGBTQ blacks. Even if people don’t put a giant asterisk on their comment stating, “Yes, I know there are gay African-Americans” the commenters here all seem pretty sensitive to that intersection.
    When it comes to discussing a political issue, generalizations are made about blacks and Mormons due to their voting patterns. Compared to other demographics, their voting is more homogenous across class/profession/level of education etc.
    That’s not to say that there aren’t HUGE exceptions that deserve notice. But the trends should be looked at so we can know how to progress…
    We shouldn’t pretend like there isn’t a religious-based homophobia in this country that seems to take particular effect in the Mormon and African American communities. There certainly is. And we can work on countering that without making it seem like African American and gay are mutually exclusive categories.

  11. Jennifer
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    Sigh. 70% is a number that is a majority. That’s a fact. To say “it seems that the majority” based on that 70% of that group voted a certain way, to me, doesn’t seem like some evil statement. It seems like a statement of fact.
    Point of all this is – it’s perfectly acceptable to point a finger at Christians, but it’s not okay and you are racist if you look at the statistic and point a finger at 70% of the African-Americans in CA.
    NEVER did I imply there were no women African-Americans or gay African-Americans. You completely missed my point and are putting words in my mouth.
    The right of marriage being stripped away from a whole population in CA is now being ignored, and because it’s a touch subject, all people seem to care about now is protecting the rights of the 70% who did this. It’s a slap in the face of the LGBT population in CA.
    Everyone is ignoring the hypocrisy here. If I, a Feminist, fighting for women’s rights, decided it’s okay for me to not want LGBT to have rights, you all would jump down my throat worse than you are doing now. But it’s okay for people fighting for civil rights to not want to give LGBT rights. Okay. I see.
    If being racially sensitive means “don’t ever say anything bad about a minority ever no matter what he/she has done, even if something horrible” then I guess I’m not. To me, it means equality. Equal rights AND equal ACCOUNTABILITY for your actions, positive AND NEGATIVE.
    So EXCUSE ME!

  12. Jennifer
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    Exactly. People are willing to blame the usual culprits but are ignoring the third in the case because they are afraid because the group to blame is a group that we are not allowed to blame for anything bad in this society because it makes us evil minority-haters.
    This is “equality”?
    Being angry at a black population because they are black would be racist. Being angry at a black population because they saw fit to take away the rights of a whole population in CA is reasonable and logic, and not about their race, but about their actions.
    I equally am disappointed in the blog, and these other commentors. The issue has been stolen from the gay population – instead you all are fighting for the right of the black population to take away the rights of others. WTF?

  13. Jennifer
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 11:05 am | Permalink

    You just said 69% marked yes. That’s just one point away from 70%. Not too different.
    So, most of them approved gay marriage the first time around, and the second time around went against it.
    All I can gather from this is that 70% of the blacks in CA were confused and chose the wrong box?

  14. a.k.a. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    I’m sorry, but to me 50% of 90% vs. 70% of 10% is like splitting hairs. 70% is significantly more than 50%, of course, but not for the kinds of arguments you’re making.
    If 50% of a population is voting one way and you don’t consider that “voting as a block” then 70% doesn’t exactly seem like “voting as a block” either.
    And why might I be more comfortable generalizing/stereotyping Conservative Christians than I would be blacks? Well, maybe because for starters, over the past few decades Conservative Christians have had way more power in this country than have blacks. Heck, look at the past 8 years. So I think the chances of blacks truly feeling threatened over something like this is greater. I think feminists of all people should understand this concept. You can’t treat men and women exactly the same from here on out because women have less power in this culture (overall) to begin with.
    But moreover, it’s more logical to me, because like I said, a group like “regular attending church-goers” or “Republicans” constitutes a far larger percentage of California voters total. You ARE looking to actually change as many people’s mind as possible, to get Prop 8 rescinded once and for all aren’t you? …Or are you only concerned with so-called “hypocrites”?

  15. Skemono
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    What? Um. Try reading that again. The new data suggests that it was 57%, not 70%.

  16. secretinsidegirl
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    I’d hate for us to get involved in a Religion v Gay binary, too. It seems that so much of our conversation has been focused on who to blame instead of forging ties between all groups to support civil rights.

  17. Rebecca
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    And why might I be more comfortable generalizing/stereotyping Conservative Christians than I would be blacks? Well, maybe because for starters, over the past few decades Conservative Christians have had way more power in this country than have blacks
    Also because, hel-lo, “conservative Christian” tends to imply “anti-gay.” Race implies exactly nothing about support or opposition to marriage equality.

  18. deerly
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

    I love it when the comments here get so diverse.
    Honestly, I would think that calling out homophobia wherever it exists is beneficial to the LGBTQ people within that community.
    Isn’t that one of the things this website strives to do? Shed light on bigotry and prejudice and oppression so that it is not allowed to exist within any communities or cultures?
    I can in no way empathize, of course, but I do know that it makes me HAPPY to see hate and discrimination called out within my community and happy if ever my peers are forced to recognize and deal with their prejudice.
    I’m not sure I see anything wrong with calling out oppressive trends and no truly progressive minded individual is going to use a statistic or figure to paint a brush over an entire diverse group.

  19. thetestosteronewars
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    If 50% of a population is voting one way and you don’t consider that “voting as a block” then 70% doesn’t exactly seem like “voting as a block” either.
    If a populations vote is not significantly different than chance (i.e, 50-50), I don’t consider it a coherent voting block. I don’t think it’s hard to understand why a 40 point spread is a meaningful difference. In election terms, a 20 point spread is considered a landslide.
    Furthermore, I don’t know what additional variables to add to make an even more coherent subset of African American votes. Age is a very big factor (across all groups), but a gradual one (each younger generation is a little more liberal). There isn’t some specific age point at which 70% of the people above this point voted for the measure and 70% against.
    White votes become coherent voting blocks when they are divided by partisan affiliation. Perhaps black votes would have as well if their were a meaningful number of black Republicans. This is not to deny that differences exist within these groups. However, the voting booth doesn’t provide a kaleidoscope of options. Your choices are frequently “either/or”. Obama OR McCain. Gay rights OR gay discrimination. When coherent blocks emerge, we must consider them meaningful.
    But moreover, it’s more logical to me, because like I said, a group like “regular attending church-goers” or “Republicans” constitutes a far larger percentage of California voters total. You ARE looking to actually change as many people’s mind as possible, to get Prop 8 rescinded once and for all aren’t you? …Or are you only concerned with so-called “hypocrites”?
    Yes, if we could get 70% of white voters to support gay marriage, that would be ideal. Then the white majority could impose their opinions on everyone else. Wouldn’t that be great?
    The problem is the stability of the white Democrat/white Republican divide. It does not emerge only in the gay marriage topic. Women’s rights, anti-war, social welfare are all topics that Democrats and Republicans disagree sharply on.
    Blacks, on the other hand, tend to side with white Democrats on most issues. They are reliable partners in the Democratic coalition. It is more feasible to sway them to back an issue with people they already work with.

  20. a.k.a. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    “Yes, if we could get 70% of white voters to support gay marriage, that would be ideal. Then the white majority could impose their opinions on everyone else. Wouldn’t that be great?
    The problem is the stability of the white Democrat/white Republican divide. It does not emerge only in the gay marriage topic. Women’s rights, anti-war, social welfare are all topics that Democrats and Republicans disagree sharply on.
    Blacks, on the other hand, tend to side with white Democrats on most issues.”
    Categories like “Regular attending church-goeers” (Or even, Republicans) would include MANY ethnicities, not just white.
    YOU are assuming that blacks will be more easily persuaded from their religion than from their political party affiliation. You MAY be right. But if so, why would you not go about trying to change the minds of people against gay right for religion reasons IN GENERAL??? Why focus on the blacks? I’m betting a significant percentage of the white (or Asian or hispanic or etc. etc.) people in California who voted for Prop 8 were registered Democrats who did so for religious reasons.

  21. thetestosteronewars
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 5:14 pm | Permalink

    Honestly, I would think that calling out homophobia wherever it exists is beneficial to the LGBTQ people within that community.
    Addressing homophobia wherever it exists is beneficial. “Calling out” sounds confrontational, so you could make the argument it is detrimental to LGBTQ people within that community to have outsiders calling out their community.
    We do have to recognize the extra burden of being LGBTQ in a hostile community. Our society is still essentially segregated, and they are often pressed to “pick a side”. Unfortunately, it’s not so easy. Our communities are built out of our culture, and few people really choose their culture. Trying to “switch sides” can be painful and difficult. “Calling out” their community can put them on the spot, exacerbating their suffering.
    That said, we cannot ignore it, if for no other reason than we are not a strictly segregated country. Different communities and cultures interact, and affect one another (in the voting booth, if no place else).
    Far from making them invisible, the path ahead is to support LGBTQ in hostile communities. They are the best ambassadors for engaging those communities and making progress. That said: we have to acknowledge there is a problem!

  22. thetestosteronewars
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

    YOU are assuming that blacks will be more easily persuaded from their religion than from their political party affiliation. You MAY be right. But if so, why would you not go about trying to change the minds of people against gay right for religion reasons IN GENERAL??? Why focus on the blacks?
    You said it yourself: I am assuming they can be more easily persuaded.
    I never say we SHOULDN’T try to convince everybody. I’m saying lets put our effort where we can have the biggest impact. Let’s move the few points to narrowly winning these votes. When fire and brimstone doesn’t rain down from the heavens, when gay families are seen frequently and are shown to be functional and good for society, this is evidence we take back to the other side to convince them. But first we have to start winning. So yes, I say focus on the people who already agree with us on a lot of issues.

  23. Maria Ann
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    You’re missing the point. Let’s accept the 70% number as true for a moment even though it’s just an exit poll. That’s 70% of the African American voters living in California which is 6.7% according to the US census of California for 2006. http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000.html Let’s be generous and say EVERY African American person in the state voted. 70% of 6.7% is 4.2%, so 4.2% of the vote in favor of Proposition 8 (at the MOST!) came from African American voters. The measure passed 52.3 to 47.7. That’s a gap of 4.6%. Even if EVERY African American voter who voted Yes on 8 instead voted No, there is no way that they could have swung the election back over. THAT is why it is dumb to focus on their votes. And THAT is how statistics can be used to say whatever you want.

  24. Jennifer
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    I never said anything about all African-Americans. I said 70% of them in CA.
    Apparently, from all these angry commentors, “I am angry at 70% of black voters in CA” is read as “I hate all black people everywhere”.
    Nice…

  25. Jennifer
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

    “A CNN exit poll indicated that about 69 percent of black California voters marked “yes” on Proposition 8, but the new data indicates that about 57 percent of black voters approved the amendment, he said.”
    You misread it. 57% approved the ORIGINAL AMENDMENT, which came into effect a few years ago.
    69% marked “yes” on Prop 8 – which was not the amendment – it was to ban gay marriage.
    You misunderstood the CNN information it seems…

  26. Jennifer
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    Of course people that believe in civil rights should be more easily persuaded to support the rights of another oppressed group than groups like white Republicans and Mormons who are not supportive of rights for many or all oppressed groups, since they do the oppressing.
    I experienced a lot of discrimination throughout my childhood based on my appearance, so I feel that made me more perceptive to the discrimination an prejudice against others.
    Why can’t we expect the same? Doesn’t seem so far-fetched.
    Let’s imagine this situation: 70% of the Mormon population in CA votes “yes” on Prop 8. I say I am angry at these people. Will you get angry at me? Is this unreasonable?
    70% of the African-American population in CA votes “yes” on Prop 8. I say I am angry at these people. OH NO! I AM A HORRIBLE HORRIBLE IGNORANT RACIST PERSON!!! HOW UNREASONABLE!
    Come on, people…

  27. artdyke
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

    OK, the world (not just the media) DOES seem to think there’s some big gay/black war going on… but it seems to me that it is straight white allies and straight black people that are getting all pissy with each other over the use of this statistic. the gays are too busy being out in the streets protesting the mormon church and rallying at every city hall in the state.
    i am gay and i do think it is particularly egregious that a historically oppressed group would vote 70% in favor of oppressing another minority, and for those same reasons I think they could be more easily persuaded to change their minds, but does that mean i am attacking blacks or ignoring queer blacks or blaming blacks entirely for prop 8 passing? NO. And I am offended that the people who are irritated at this discussion taking place seem to think so. I’m not erasing gay blacks, I’m busy protesting alongside them… I’m pretty sure erasing black queers is what 70% of the black voters were doing when they voted to pass prop 8.
    The mormon church HAS been taking the heat for this, when our energies are focused on any specific group instead of CA as a whole. THAT is who we’ve been directing our energies toward, despite what the heterosexual blogosphere seems to think. Are thousands of us in the street every day for weeks that invisible?!

  28. a.k.a. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

    You like misread my post. Congratulations.
    I specified DEMOCRATS who voted for Prop 8 for religious reasons. White Democrats, Asian Democrats, Hispanic Democrats who voted for Prop 8 for religious reasons. They’re out there, believe me. Why not focus as much energy on them as on black Democrats who voted for Prop 8?
    Frankly, I do think it’s a little unfair to say that you think gay rights is just like civil rights and therefore everyone who supports one has to support the other. To me that’s condescending. I do think that sexuality and race often operate in different spheres. I do not believe that someone who supports civil rights has any more obligation (or any less) to support gay rights than do conservatives.
    Just like for sexism, I do not blame the women who perpetuate it more than I blame men, and I do not blame Democrats who perpetuate it more than I blame Republicans. That just doesn’t make sense to me.

  29. artdyke
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

    Gay rights ARE civil rights, and everyone who believes in the principles that this nation was ostensibly founded one has an obligation to support them.

  30. spike the cat
    Posted November 29, 2008 at 9:33 pm | Permalink

    Where are you seeing that? All of the information in the quoted sentence (and from what I could tell from the article) appears to reference the amendment set forth by Proposition 8 of this year.

  31. tommydagun
    Posted November 30, 2008 at 6:31 am | Permalink

    But African Americans were 10% of the voters in this election, as the cartoon above points out. 70% of 10% is 7%, beyond the margin by which Prop. 8 passed.
    Assume that the African American vote had split, 50-50. The white and Asian votes were 51% against, the Latino vote 53% in favor, so 50-50 is a reasonable compromise. The difference between that hypothetical and reality is 20% of 10% of the electorate, or 2%. Change that 2% from a Yes vote to the No vote. Proposition 8 passed with 52.2% of the vote. Subtracting 2% of that would have come pretty close, particularly since we’re talking about exit polls (there could have been, ironically enough, something of a Bradley effect, such that the African American vote for Prop. 8 could have been under-polled), practically a rounding error.

  32. tommydagun
    Posted November 30, 2008 at 6:48 am | Permalink

    It’s too bad that the article cited doesn’t provide any link to the data. Looking at the CNN polling data, I find that cited number (57%) hard to believe, unless all the other data in the CNN poll were badly off.
    The CNN poll had white voters (63% of the electorate) voting No 51-49, African American voters (10%) voting Yes 70-30, Latino voters (18%) voting Yes 53-47, Asian voters (6%) voting No 51-49, and “Other” (3%) voting Yes 51-49. Take all of the non-black Yes vote, ((0.63*0.49)+(0.18*0.53)+(0.06*0.49)+(0.03*0.51)) gets you to 44.88% yes. There’s a gap there of about 7.3% from the outcome (52.2%-44.88%=7.32%). The African American vote was 10% of the electorate. If they voted for Prop 8 70%, then that’s pretty close to the gap here. Unless the CNN poll numbers were complete off across the board, it is at least internally valid.

  33. LalaReina
    Posted November 30, 2008 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    I’m Hispanic but I have to say I am well sick and tired of this scapegoating. Want to be mad? Fine be mad. How f-ing cares? Backlash goes both ways.Hell I hear glbt people of color talk about how racist THEY fine mainstream gays so they didn’t have a far leap.

  34. Danyell
    Posted November 30, 2008 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    Actually, if you re-read the cartoon, it wasn’t saying anything about Mormon VOTERS- it was talking about the ads that they spent tons of money on to convince other people that legal gay marriage would mean that their churches could get sued for denying gay couples to marry there. Which in turn scares other Christians, who are a majority population.
    But the actual point is that trying to lay blame with one group is counter productive. The media is trying to blame Black people because firstly, the media always enjoys blaming Black people, and because it causes a rift between these minority groups and creates chaos, distracting everyone from accomplishing anything in order to fix it.
    So right now, even having this argument is pointless and petty.

  35. Danyell
    Posted November 30, 2008 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    Wait…explain again how gay rights are different from civil rights?
    We’re talking about homosexual people who want the civil rights of marriage.
    What am I missing?

  36. a.k.a. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted November 30, 2008 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    Call it whatever you gosh darn want to. There are people of every color who identifiy as Democrat, who support most current social justice issues but who don’t support gay marriage. There is no positive purpose in focusing extra on the black community as separate from all the others.
    Also, look at LalaReina’s post below. I think she’s right.

  37. Posted December 1, 2008 at 2:34 am | Permalink

    Swearjar,
    Are you freaking kidding me when you say “no one would generalize about white males?” EVERYONE generalizes about white males and assumes they are all sexist, racist, homophobes. Personally, I assume all men are sexist, unless they self-identify as feminists. I am almost always right.
    It is obvious that there is toxic homophobia in the black community, to a greater extent than in any other community. However, I think what people have a problem with is discussing black people as a group because it conflicts with the fact that people are individuals first. However, in our current society, we are all involuntarily grouped in some way and we do look at statistics through the lenses of gender, skin color, age, educational level, etc. Perhaps this isn’t the best way to look at society. However, I think that a “black community” does exist to some extent. I think that a strong community has been an essential part of the black survival mechanism- by binding together, blacks became a more powerful force than they could be individually. It was a necessary and effective part of the civil rights movement. And I think that in the insulation of the group, a lot of power was fostered that was useful, but at the same time a lot of different ideas were kept out. As a result, a lot of black people have inherited ideas from their parents and grandparents that stem from a time when the group was highly valued, above the individual. Times are changing and the group identity is dissolving. However, votes like the one on prop 8 certainly show the lingering effects of the group’s insulation.
    Feminists also can end up hurting themselves by becoming too insulated, as a group. For example, feminists will not accept women into their group who have different ideologies, e.g.. Republicans or Libertarians. This insulation has actually hurt women by making feminism a marginalized movement.

  38. Alan
    Posted December 1, 2008 at 3:16 am | Permalink

    “Personally, I assume all men are sexist, unless they self-identify as feminists. I am almost always right.”
    “Feminists also can end up hurting themselves by becoming too insulated, as a group.”
    I’m getting conflicting messages here. You’re saying, you (ridiculously!) assume that all men are sexist (and you say it as though you’re proud of it!) but then you say that you want feminism to not be insulated. You’re really working against yourself if that’s your outlook.
    If there’s anything we feminists need to distance ourselves from it’s assumptions based on gender. We can’t demand that female-based assumptions be voided from the cultural imagination while holding onto our male-based assumptions.
    And, if we’re trying to not make feminism an isolated movement, then making that assumption about men is really running counter to the ideas of inclusiveness and tolerance that you envision for the movement in your last paragraph.

  39. unapologeticfeminist.com
    Posted December 1, 2008 at 9:44 pm | Permalink

    Alan,
    I can make those assumptions about men based on a lifetime of experience. I don’t live in a fairy tale world where I assume that everyone likes me just because I am super special. I live in the reality of a patriarchy where most men want to hold onto their power. I am a realist. I would have to be willfully ignorant to not make any gender-based assumptions about men wanting to hold onto power.
    When I say I don’t want feminism to be insulated, I mean that I don’t want feminist ideology to be insulated, particularly when it comes to mobilizing large groups of women. Women make up 51% of the population and we can get the job done if we have enough flexibility to allow women with diverse ideologies into the feminism club.
    If feminist men want to join in- that is great. But I have wasted too much of my life trying to convince men that sexism even exists. I don’t waste my time on that nonsense any more. I welcome men into the feminism club who self-identify as feminists and I encourage woman of ALL ideologies to find their place in the feminist movement.
    What I see as an insulated feminism is the branch of feminism promoted on blogs like this, which only support women from one political party.

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