The dream and the nightmare…


Cartoon by Mikhaela Reid.

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49 Comments

  1. Lydia Encyclopedia
    Posted November 7, 2008 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

    Sad but true… Sigh.

  2. artdyke
    Posted November 7, 2008 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    yep… that was my night. i was happy for about 20 minutes, then i spent the next 24 hours either sleeping or curled into the fetal position sobbing…

  3. Nebraska
    Posted November 7, 2008 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    sounds about right.

  4. artdyke
    Posted November 7, 2008 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

    and then i took to the streets and DID something. I felt much better. You should too:
    http://queersunited.blogspot.com/2008/11/listing-of-prop-8-protests-and-rallies.html

  5. OneOfAKind
    Posted November 7, 2008 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

    It’s so fucked up Prop 8 didn’t pass. Why is it such a big deal gays get married. To me the way I see it if you’re against gays getting married, no one is forcing you to attend the wedding.

  6. Denis
    Posted November 7, 2008 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    While this was the way I felt, it has also inspired me to take action. We cannot expect the only change to come from Obama or his administration (especially since the man believes marriage is between one man and one woman, even if he was against Prop 8), so we have to be the change we want to see. Hopefully his administration just makes it an easier fight.

  7. Geneva
    Posted November 7, 2008 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    The thing that makes me the most hopeful about the prop 8 mess is the young voters. They overwhelmingly voted no on prop 8, and judging by the many facebook group requests I got on Nov. 5th with titles such as “One million strong against prop 8″ and “OVERTURN PROP 8 NOW!!!”, I’d say that college students are really gonna raise hell. At the very least, the fact that our generation is so much more strongly opposed to prop8 than older generations means (i hope) that our society will eventually move in that direction as the population gets older.

  8. Lucinda
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 12:33 am | Permalink

    What’s in a name? Why isn’t a state-sanctioned civil union with all the rights of a traditional marriage enough?
    As a matter of fairness and human rights, all the same rights and privileges must be afforded gay couples who want to commit to each other and form civil unions, but it seems that, as of now, a majority of Americans don’t want to use the word ‘marriage’ to describe this union. According to contemporary philosophy of language, it’s not the courts or the most educated among us who get to decide what a word means (or even a dictionary): language speakers get to decide what words mean. And for a large portion of English speakers the word ‘marriage’ has always, in their minds, applied exclusively to male/female unions. I think “the people” should be allowed to define words as they wish, but no rights can be denied same-sex couples — that’s a separate issue of equal rights and equal protection. (In states where a person can be fired from a job for being gay, the courts and the legislature must step in and amend this injustice.)
    This is my attempt at explaining why the concept of gay marriage is so unpopular. I don’t think it’s always a matter of bigotry.

  9. Laurie Anne
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 12:51 am | Permalink

    Lucinda, would you for example like to have some the rights of a citizen of your country (to be taken away at any time, of course, since you are not a citizen), but have an election held determining that you are not allowed to call yourself one? The idea of separate but equal is
    insanity.

  10. Posted November 8, 2008 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    @Lucinda You’re making the “separate but equal argument” and it is revolting. Language does matter and we will use the word marriage because we demand equal rights.
    A previous example of where “the people” were wrong and had to be killed to right the situation is the defeat of slavery in this country. This is the exact same issue. If it takes revolutionary action to protect individual rights then that is what we will do. We will settle for nothing less.
    Also, don’t forget a historically large number of black voters turned out on Tuesday. Of those, 75 percent of black women and 70 percent of black voters pushed Prop. 8 to victory. http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#CAI01p1/
    Congratulations Feministing, this is what your post-feminist feminist President models as acceptable behavior. That is to say, masculinity, hetero-normativity and nuclear family christian values.
    The oppressed are oppressing the oppressed and we must not let them off the hook. No one gets a free pass.

  11. Alice
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 1:42 am | Permalink

    …but no rights can be denied same-sex couples — that’s a separate issue of equal rights and equal protection. (In states where a person can be fired from a job for being gay, the courts and the legislature must step in and amend this injustice.)
    The power to tell people who they can and can’t fire is exactly the same power that lets the majority tell people who they can and can’t marry.

  12. Alienation
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 2:53 am | Permalink

    “A previous example of where “the people” were wrong and had to be killed to right the situation is the defeat of slavery in this country.”
    It’s the same as the post-Radical Reconstruction days and the enstatement of the Jim Crow Laws right after. I don’t get the correlation between any civil right and slavery.
    I was devastated when I found out that Prop. 8 passed. Although I intend this not to offer retribution, but Loving V. Virginia and the case of interracial marriage was very similar when the right failed. But it was eventually taken to the supreme court, and won. It’s this kind of outright injustice that makes even the most unconcerned of people take notice…Hopefully.

  13. aideenjohnston
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 5:07 am | Permalink

    No it’s not. That’s like arguing that there’s no problem with separate water fountains for blacks and native americans because as long as everyone get’s a drink of water who cares?

  14. OneOfAKind
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 5:46 am | Permalink

    The thing that sucks about it is that high schoolers are deeply against it too (I’m 16 and hate Prop 8 with everything in my heart along with the majority of my school). I just wish we could vote against these things but we can’t and most of the support for gay rights come from people my age as well.

  15. Ariane
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 8:23 am | Permalink

    SCOTUS decided that “separate but equal” is not equal at all. Civil unions and marriages bestow different benefits upon their participants. If we are speaking only of the weight given to the word “marriage” versus the term “civil union”, then it is clear that saying “I am married” carries much more traditional weight behind it than “I am in a civil union with my partner”.
    That the same people who claim marriage should only be between one man and one woman apparently can’t see further back into the past than 1950 or further afield than Hawaii is unsurprising; that definition of marriage ignores every culture in which monogamy or a 1:1 marriage is unusual or not the only acceptable “norm”.

  16. meeneecat
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 8:51 am | Permalink

    “separate but equal” in inherently UNEQUAL.

  17. lessucettes
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 9:45 am | Permalink

    Harvey Fierstein wrote an excellent piece in the Huffington Post on this subject today
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/harvey-fierstein/historic-for-some-same-ol_b_142170.html

  18. Nakedcat
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    Outwrong, I think you come way too close to outright blaming the African-American community for the failure of Prop 8. Yes, most black voters supported it. However, that just pushes the responsibility back on the proposal’s opponents to spend more time making connections to the black community and specifically talking with them about why this is important.

  19. Nakedcat
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 10:22 am | Permalink

    I know it’s very hard to have to sit and wait to be old enough to vote while you feel so strongly. It was only 5 years ago that I was in your shoes.
    You are also absolutely right that the younger people are, the more likely they are to support gay rights, including gay marriage. The last time California voted on this issue, in 2000, it passed with 61% of the vote. This time, the count stands at 52%. That’s an improvement of 9% in 8 years, in part because of the addition of many new young voters to the rolls.
    This will almost certainly come to a vote again in a couple years, and then we will have even more under 30 voters on our side to help vote against it. You’re our hope for the future, OneOfAKind!

  20. idyllicmollusk
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    Outwrong, your comments are very inappropriate.
    Not all blacks voted for Prop 8. There are plenty of queer blacks out there, as well as queer-friendly straight blacks. Being angry at “blacks” and blaming them for queer oppression is indefensible… blacks are not a monolithic group.
    Yes, the statistics you list are accurate. Let us keep in mind that blacks are a minority in the state of California, and that the support of whites and other groups is what got Prop 8 passed. If we should be angry with anyone in particular, we should be mad at the Mormon Church (predominantly made up of whites), which provided the funding for the Yes on Prop 8 campaign.
    Please let’s not engage in divisive blame games. Queer and queer-friendly blacks hate Prop 8 just as much as you do.

  21. Basie
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    Yeah but are you not deflecting as well. I mean if I looked at the numbers and saw that 70% of a group of people voted for discrimination, I would want to start looking into that community and see what the hell you know? Like I have heard NO ONE talk about the need to find out what is the matter in the black communities that there are so many who oppose gay rights. There is something there. If any group is going to pony up to the table and play with the big kids then that group has to be big enough to critique itself. Instead I hear that well gays are racist or that the campaign was racially deficient or that gays are arrogant. Is that not VICTIM BLAMING? I mean I am sure they need to re-evaluate the campaign they ran, but come on. I mean everyone from Arnold Schwarzenegger, Hillary Clinton, and Dianne Feinstein all ran ads stating it was wrong. That’s a pretty powerful message when you have the republican governor and a two very popular democratic senators putting their weight against Prop 8.
    Some things I know is that before the election, a white man could be president, gays could marry in California, and that women could get an abortion but have never been president and do not get equal pay.
    After the election I found out that a black man could be president, gays in California can no longer marry, and women can still get abortions and still have never been president and still do not get equal pay. So while I am very happy about some things, I am still very, very sad about other things. We still have so much work to do. We still have a VERY LONG FIGHT in front of us.
    Instead of blaming we should look to ourselves and our own communities. If I am to believe President elect Obama’s “Yes we can”, then the changes need to start in our own backyards and that those changes do in fact make a difference. I plan to not marry until all people can. I hope more people do the same. I mean if you planning a wedding in the future, I do hope you understand when your gay friends do not attend. These are radical times and we NEED to get radical.

  22. Mark
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    No, it’s like arguing that all public fountains are free for everyone’s use, but if you want to use private water fountains you need to follow the rules of the club.
    When using the word “marriage” proponents of gay marriage ignore the fact that, to many people, “marriage” means a covenant between a man and a woman before the eyes of (their) God (and sanctioned by the state). Marriage is not a right – it is a privilege: Catholics cannot demand Rabbis perform their marriage; Atheists cannot demand a Hindu marriage. Heterosexual couples have the right to a civil marriage, not the right to any marriage they please. Homosexuals should have that same right. Unfortunately some lawyers and politicians have clouded the issue by creating civil unions which are different from civil marriages (although the average person would imagine they are synonymous) so it is easy to get confused about who is arguing what.
    A Buddhist marriage is separate from an Islamic marriage is separate from a Christian marriage is separate from a civil service marriage is separate from every other marriage, but they are all equal in the eyes of the state. In this case separate but equal works since what is important is that you make a commitment to the one you love (preferably in front of lots of others that you love), and that the state recognizes it and doesn’t give extra resources or preference to one version or another.

  23. Lisa
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    There are two distinct facets of marriage. One is a legal contract between two people recognized by a secular state. The other is whatever sort of ceremonial/religious recognition you want. I don’t want to bar churches from performing marriages that they don’t believe in. They can choose to deny whoever they want.
    The problem is that this is not a ‘private’ issue as you label it. You compare different religious marriages and then conclude “but they are all equal in the eyes of the state.” But the state pays no attention to the ceremonial part of a marriage. No one gets a marriage license from a church, they get it from the state. Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, Wiccan, Athiest, whatever… They all get the legal recognition from the state in the same way.
    Aside from that, most state’s civil unions or domestic partnerships (those which actually offer it, many state gay marriage bans include bans against any sort of union) do not provide nearly the same number of rights as marriages.

  24. spike the cat
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    “Yeah but are you not deflecting as well. I mean if I looked at the numbers and saw that 70% of a group of people voted for discrimination, I would want to start looking into that community and see what the hell you know? Like I have heard NO ONE talk about the need to find out what is the matter in the black communities that there are so many who oppose gay rights.”
    Yes, but you do realize that we are talking about 200,000 or so voters*?
    If just 200,000 voters (of the 400,000 NET “yes” black votes) could have been persuaded to vote NO instead, we wouldn’t be having this conversation, and people could go back to generally not giving a shit what black people are doing or thinking.
    And if you don’t believe in the power of advertising, phone calling and community outreach I don’t know what to tell you, cause some very smart people spent a shit load of money to get this passed and I’m inclined to think that they knew what they were doing.
    * also known as the 200,000 homophobic, backward black people, who will from here on out represent all blacks.

  25. Rebecca
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 2:46 pm | Permalink

    Actually, marriage is a constitutional right. Churches don’t have to marry anyone they don’t want to (contrary to the pro-H8 advertising) but state-sanctioned marriage is a fundamental constitutional right.

  26. unapologetic feminist
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    Naked cat you write:
    “Yes, most black voters supported it. However, that just pushes the responsibility back on the proposal’s opponents to spend more time making connections to the black community and specifically talking with them about why this is important.”
    You are an apologist and a Gay-HATER sympathizer. You are saying that the burden is upon the oppressed minority (GAYS) to keep people from taking away their individual rights. Your rush to defend the actions of 70% of the gay-hating black community is inexcusable.
    You are blaming the JEWS for the holocaust.
    You should be ashamed and your sympathy should be with gay community, not with the people who helped to take away their chances for equality.

  27. unapologetic feminist
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    Exactly Basie. Most people are victim blaming on here and it is disgusting. We are all adults and when we do something horrible- we need to be criticized. Everyone wants to sweep this under the rug and just pretend the black community’s homophobia isn’t a problem. My gay friends whose recent marriage might be made void by this decision would beg to differ.
    Gay people already knew that they had enemies in every community and of every race. As a result of this election, gay people now know that 70% of the black community is against them too. Not just 50%, like the white and Asian communities.
    By the way, Obama held a conference yesterday. He was in a very jovial spirits. I don’t think he really is losing too much sleep over the trampling of gay rights.

  28. Alice
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    My first thought is that this is only due to blacks being disproportionately uneducated, which is in at least some part due to blacks being disproportionately poor, since homophobia negatively correlates with education level.
    But it’s kind of a pointless exercise anyway. There is not even such a thing as a “black community,” and attributing common values and associations to people based on race is pretty much the definition of racism.

  29. Qwerty
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

    “also known as the 200,000 homophobic, backward black people, who will from here on out represent all blacks”
    Nobody here is saying that. You’re kneejerking.

  30. Geneva
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    I agree completely. My birthday isn’t until January, and i got asked about twenty-five times if i voted. Somewhat depressing.

  31. Morgan
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    Well I’m from Florida and campaigned for Planned Parenthood for Obama, as well as against Ammendment 2 (fl version of prop 8). While all of the dems we campaigned for got into office Ammendment 2 passed with 62 percent. It was really disheartening…

  32. Morgan
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    Well I’m from Florida and campaigned for Planned Parenthood for Obama, as well as against Ammendment 2 (fl version of prop 8). While all of the dems we campaigned for got into office Ammendment 2 passed with 62 percent. It was really disheartening…

  33. brandyg
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    One of American’s great hypocrisies. CNN did an hour long look at Dr. King’s work including of course his marches. After the program was over they launched into the day’s news, beginning with the gay right marches. Of course, CNN wouldn’t even connect the two dots verbally.

  34. Basie
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 6:52 pm | Permalink

    You know you should have read my entire post. I did state this:
    Instead of blaming we should look to ourselves and our own communities. If I am to believe President elect Obama’s “Yes we can”, then the changes need to start in our own backyards and that those changes do in fact make a difference. I plan to not marry until all people can. I hope more people do the same. I mean if you planning a wedding in the future, I do hope you understand when your gay friends do not attend. These are radical times and we NEED to get radical.
    I did NOT solely blame black voters or anyone for that matter for the passage of Prop 8. I did state that the percentage was cause for concern. Apparently you disagree? Why is that? I think its a fair question. I am really not trying to blame, I am trying to get radical. That means we need to look to ourselves and AT ourselves. Change is gonna start with me.

  35. a.k.a. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted November 8, 2008 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    What the hell? This thread is very disturbing…
    We should be focusing on black communities because “70% of them are against us, not just 50% like Asian and white communities”? Like 50% is a small number?? Like much smaller than 70%? Like there aren’t tons more whites and Asians in California? Like if you WERE able to control those statistics for religiosity, income, and education you wouldn’t find similar attitudes among people of all races?
    Dude, focus your anger at religious conservatives and anti-gays of all races if you must. Focusing on “the black community” is just not sound.
    “The religious community” or “the working class community” are cohesive in their own way. And in this case it’s more sound to focus on those communities.

  36. meeneecat
    Posted November 9, 2008 at 12:58 am | Permalink

    I think there’s valid points in what everyone is saying, but as usual people are taking sides and just talking past each other.
    On one hand, we shouldn’t be scapegoating an entire community…I also think it’s important to do self reflection and figure out what might work better next time, for example stressing that the same language that was used to push for prop. 8 was the same that was used against interracial marriage 40 years ago….
    However, I also think it’s wrong to try to ignore and deny homophobia where it is present just because we don’t want to offend anyone. I think doing this completely ignores gay women and men of color, who have faced prejudice from within their own communities. Most gay POC will tell you that in general it’s very difficult to come out in their communities and to be accepted. And trying to push this homophobia under the rug does a huge disservice, not only to all gays, but POC especially because it essentially renders them invisible…People are talking about blacks and gays as if the two are mutually exclusive.
    Friday, I watched the Rachel Maddow show as I try to do every night and she talked about prop 8. with Princeton professor Melissa Harris-Lacewell…and they basically concluded that, Yes, it’s wrong to blame the entire black population for this, and Yes opponents could have made a more targeted pitch to the black community by talking about things like Loving v Virginia, but they also concluded that Yes, homophobia is present in the black community and that those who voted for prop. 8 “demonstrated a very bigoted vote”.
    If anyone wants to watch the clip it’s here:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcZVAlSqNbA

  37. spike the cat
    Posted November 9, 2008 at 8:33 am | Permalink

    Basie and meenecat,
    I have no problem discussing homophobia in the black community, and nowhere have I stated otherwise. Meeneecat, thanks for the link and info on the video…
    Basie you said:
    “Like I have heard NO ONE talk about the need to find out what is the matter in the black communities that there are so many who oppose gay rights.”
    Really? Because black commentators, bloggers and others have been talking about homophobia for some time now. In fact this is an issue that really started to gain wider attention in the mid 80′s.
    Right now feelings are raw, but as others have attested this is not a new issue. The only difference is that before people could sweep it under the rug, and many did. But from here on out, it’s out in the open, where it should be. And unfortunately that’s how we do it in the US: So long as the problem is “contained” then it’s not as big of a deal. Well that just ended with prop 8.
    Regarding the church: blacks are also the least likely group to even get married. Black people have the highest out of wedlock pregnancy rates also. Ironic? These issues, like homophobia, are issues that have also been framed around the role of the church as well. It deserves some attention.
    As far as the numbers: I’m using the exact extrapolations that the exit polls used. The fact remains that the number of voters who perhaps could have been swayed on this issue was very small indeed. To me that is good news in terms of reaching out to people and getting our message out. But again, when people make ask questions about the messages and campaigning that was done in certain neighborhoods, they are again accused of deflecting the conversation.
    Sometimes to get a better picture you should look at raw numbers instead of percentages. For example, drug companies use this trick when the claim that a pill can reduce the rate of disease by 50%. Wow! Of course the fine print could be 2 people of 500,000 afflicted becomes 1 person out of 500,000 if everybody takes the pill—doesn’t sound that great now does it?
    I’ve read that by far the largest predictors of gay acceptance is youth (i.e., with each generation becoming more accepting) and having the opportunity to know gay families, friends in your circle. Of course that’s going to be harder in some circles than others, but generally that’s how prejudice eventually gets worn down.
    So if you want to understand, as you said, “what’s the matter in the black community”, that’s also a good place to look.

  38. Mark
    Posted November 9, 2008 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

    Right. And what I was replying to was the assertion that only granting the right to the legal contract between two people recognized by a secular state (which was Lucinda’s point as well: “Why isn’t a state-sanctioned civil union with all the rights of a traditional marriage enough?”) is somehow discriminatory (“That’s like arguing that there’s no problem with separate water fountains for blacks and native americans…”).
    Perhaps my own water fountain analogy was a little off, but if you notice, you agree with me – it doesn’t matter that different religions have different ceremonies (separate private water fountains) because as you said “they all get the legal recognition from the state in the same way.” The problem is that there is a vocal percentage for whom this isn’t enough. Take a look at the response to Lucinda’s question – 2 for, 12 against at this point: people don’t want the exact same legal rights. I don’t know why what we have up here in Canada (Civil Marriage Act) isn’t enough for you in the States, but we call it civil marriage, marriage for short, and it seems to work just fine.

  39. Alienation
    Posted November 9, 2008 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    Unapologetic Feminist, as I recently said over on another blog…
    If you travel to your nearest bookstore and pick up a copy of a book that has to do with black homophobia or black sexism and its roots, perhaps your questions and hatred will suddenly subside. For one, black sexuality has been demonized, and therefore black people have had to prove heteronormalcy. Secondly, black masculinity which hurts black women through violence, misogyny black glbt’s, etc., play a variety of factors in the community that encourages disdain for GLBT’s. Thirdly, many black people were forced through colonization to be religiously conservative. And yes, I do hold black homophobes and black sexists responsible for their behavior at all costs. But the difference is that I also know where it comes from. Everyday in this country, black women are killed, raped, and harassed in exuberant numbers due to black patriarchy. Obviously this applies to the black glbt’s you’ve rendered invisible because “blacks” and “gays” are separate groups in your limited imagination.
    When I heard about proposition 8, I was angered and depressed. The lack of support for gay marriage among SOME blacks is also comparable to the countless feminists of all races who view women as equal to men, but suddenly support the notion of biological gender differences when it applies to trans-rights. Or the immigrants who look down on black Americans despite their (and our) mutual oppression. Indeed, oppressed groups don’t necessarily identify with each other. It’s a hurtful and tragic reality. I voted for the candidate that was in favor of gay marriage this election, that person was Cynthia McKinney.
    Sadly, when whites paint blacks with this unified monolithic brush, having an honest discourse about where homophobia and sexism comes from in the black community often is forced into a backseat issue. I don’t like being put in that position, but the obvious and unnerving racism from privileged whites gay or straight forces me to align myself with people I don’t necessarily agree with simply to combat ridiculous stereotypes and misconceptions. If whites can say “blacks” hate “gays”, as though blacks are inherently straight and gays are inherently white, then I have no choice. Not because I identify as black before feminist, or black before GLBT ally, but because people like you force me to choose this identity first.
    In short, based on a statistic that reflects location and a limited poll, your white entitlement allows you to compare something to both the holocaust AND slavery as soon as you don’t get your way. Your ignorance is showing, and in a very unflattering light…

  40. Alienation
    Posted November 9, 2008 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    “There is not even such a thing as a “black community,” and attributing common values and associations to people based on race is pretty much the definition of racism.”
    I agree 100%, Alice. The “black community” is a media created alliance that serves to increase white fear and promote bigotry. When there are 3 black people, some whites see 100 and always will. :-(

  41. Lucinda
    Posted November 9, 2008 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

    To what question is your reply “No it’s not” directed. I’m confused.

  42. Lucinda
    Posted November 9, 2008 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

    I guess I’m not surprised that my opinion is not popular, but I think the main point hasn’t been addressed or disputed.
    As a student of history, I agree that “separate but equal” doesn’t work. All couples should be able to apply for and, if they meet certain gender-blind requirements, receive the EXACT SAME rights and benefits of a civil union formalized by the state. However, you can’t tell a vast majority of the people of this country that the word ‘marriage’ must mean something other than what they believe it to be fundamentally.
    For example, my mom died recently. If my dad ever remarried, there is no way in the world that anyone will ever convince me that his new wife is my new ‘mom.’ It’s nothing against the new wife but that’s not what the word ‘mom’ means to me and never will be. Universalize this private story and that’s how people feel about ‘marriage.’ For a lot of people marriage is between a man and woman by definition and includes the possibility of procreation. I think this is a social/cultural thing.

  43. artdyke
    Posted November 10, 2008 at 12:12 am | Permalink

    The only reason people don’t want us to have the word marriage is because they think our relationships are in some way different that heterosexual ones. They aren’t. That’s bigotry.

  44. artdyke
    Posted November 10, 2008 at 12:35 am | Permalink

    Why shouldn’t we focus on the black community? Obviously that is a group that we need more outreach in. The percentages were distinctly worse than in other groups, and that merits attention. That doesn’t mean we’re gonna stop fighting homophobia on all other fronts…
    Also, are people really saying there isn’t a black community? A community is made up of multifaceted groups drawn together by certain commonalities, such as political beliefs, shared culture, or sexual orientation. Can we not add color to that? I think that just by being black you automatically have a set of shared experiences by nature of living in what is oftentimes still a racist country, and is certainly not color blind… like the gay community has certain shared experiences like coming out and, more often than not, experiences of homophobia. Not to mention, there is certainly a distinct African-American culture that would build a “black community,” regardless of whether every black person was a part of it.
    But what do I know, I’m white…
    Anyway, none of this matters right now. You should all be in the streets! Man, I have marched so much (with people of every color) that I am gonna be in excellent shape by the time we have our rights back… We finally took Hollywood Blvd last night. :D

  45. lonsch
    Posted November 10, 2008 at 3:20 am | Permalink

    On June 7th 1989 the Danish parliament passed the ‘law on registered partnership’ and on October 1st that year Axel and Eigil Axgil got married at Copenhagen’s Town Hall. As the first homosexual couple in history (legally, at least). That makes me very proud, coming from Denmark. And I’m sorry it has to be such an issue (still) in America.
    A Danish journalist (stationed in Washington) explained that a lot of people had been fooled into voting for propostion 8 thinking they were voting FOR gay marriages and not against … If that’s true, that really amazes me. And it makes me very sad.

  46. Tehanu
    Posted November 10, 2008 at 9:05 am | Permalink

    Watching from afar, I was sickened with the result of Proposition 8 as well — it’s bad enough voting against extending rights, as has now happened in so many states, but to give a right and then take it back? Disgusting.
    So much of the commentary and argument about same sex marriage in the USA has an eerie ring for me … I live in Ontario, the first province to bring in equal marriage in 2003. And yes, people screamed bloody murder. Many were nice people in general who were unfamiliar with the issue, but had a kneejerk homophobic response. Some others seized on SSM as an excuse to vent their hatred. But in short order province after province brought in equal marriage, and eventually the federal government was dragged kicking and screaming to approve it as well.
    And the sky did not fall.
    And while same-sex marriage was a muted federal election issue in 2006, it wasn’t even murmured about in our most recent one last month. Because the sky didn’t fall, and only the most rabid of the religious right in Canada still consider the issue a priority.
    It was only three years ago that SSM was brought in federally in Canada. Only three years for it to become completely matter-of-fact for the vast majority of Canadians.
    We are not so different up here. I’m saying all this to hold out hope that while it’s a big, big fight right now in the USA, with any luck the court challenges and the activism will bring about change. And that in a few years it will become a fait accompli for you as well.
    My fingers are crossed.

  47. justinc
    Posted November 10, 2008 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    i dont understand what the big deal is about gay marriage? why cant they get married? its not like its going to do anybody any harm. I mean c’mon now if your against gay marriage thats fine, then dont get one. but for eveyone else, let them do what they want.

  48. Alienation
    Posted November 11, 2008 at 4:01 am | Permalink

    “Obviously that is a group that we need more outreach in. ”
    Well, did you reach out when black women were victims of black patriarchy and (everyday) are killed by men in black neighborhoods? What about when GLBT people f color/black women are victims of hate crimes? If you didn’t reach out then, why all of a sudden?
    ” I think that just by being black you automatically have a set of shared experiences by nature of living in”
    Tell that to the people I listed above. The black community was created by the media, and aside from something used to scapegoat black patriarchs to prevent black women from speaking out, or people like Al Sharpton to have a job over. Other than that, I assure you- it doesn’t exist. No, there aren’t any black leaders, no black militants, or black allegiances that are waiting to dismantle white people’s houses when we get the opportunity. That’s all media hogwash. Very similar to Kennedy who admitted that he thought black people were “happy” being isolated in segregation because they had “things in common”.
    People usually don’t “bond” over skin color. Unless, there is privilege that comes with it. So while black people experience racism, other than oppression, there is no commonality. “African American” culture is “American” culture but because America is segregated, it’s considered separate. If you want to talk about “Southern culture”, sure, southern black culture is distinctive from Northern black culture, but that applies across all ethnic groups.
    This reminds me of this conversation I had recently about my father, who is from the Caribbean. When I told someone he had never eaten fried chicken until he got to this country, they were shocked. Fried chicken is an American southern tradition. Believe it or not, black people have very different cultures all over the world because of location and language.
    Of course none of this matters! Only an issue that effects white people usually matters. So, lets get back to the issue at hand…

  49. pacifistvigilante
    Posted November 17, 2008 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    That girl also can’t grow up to be president unless she’s Christian. Calling Obama a Muslim was actually used to slander him, because the idea of having a Muslim president is unconscionable.

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