Stay classy, Joe Francis

jfrancis.jpgAshley Alexandra Dupre, the sex worker in the Spitzer scandal, has filed a lawsuit against Girls Gone Wild, which notes that Dupre was underage when she exposed herself on video.
GGW founder and known asshole Joe Francis’ response: “But I think it’s ironic that she charged Gov. Spitzer $2,000 for sex and she wants to charge me 10 million for taking some naked pictures of her…I feel like I’m getting a raw deal.”
Warms the heart, no?
Thanks to Hilary for the link.

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104 Comments

  1. jfaustus
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    the trolls are out from under the bridges on this one.

  2. speef
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    Zvebab -
    I’m not even sure she has a problem with the public “seeing her boobs” (although she might, showing your breasts once while drunk does not mean you automatically want the public to have access to those images for the rest of your life)…
    But I’m pretty sure that what she really has a big issue with is Joe Francis *illegally* making millions off her image. I would have a problem with that too, wouldn’t you?

  3. Posted April 30, 2008 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    I would like for them to both just go away now, thanks.

  4. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

    “I think $10 million is a bit excessive to sue for. I’d like to know how she picked that number. Is that what’s he’s made off pictures of her?”
    She asking for the maximum amount she thinks she could get. She may very well get less than that. That’s what people generally do when they sue, I believe.
    “If they knew she wasn’t really 18, then stop using the pictures/videos/whatever, give her the money you made off them, end of story.”
    Okay. But I got the impression he hadn’t used the footage yet, or else, he was planning to re-release it, now that everyone knows who she is. So he was still the one looking to further profit…
    “I hate those GGW commercials, and yes, most girls on there seem a bit drunk but, perhaps they should think about things before they drink that much. I don’t care what sex or age you are, getting so drunk you make decisions you regret later is stupid.”
    Oh good. Blame the victim. This keeps getting better and better.
    You know, people around the world drink. Rich, white males drink.
    If Joe Francis and his video crew /mob/ didn’t exist, this wouldn’t happen to these girls either. And for the record, Joe Francis /does/ try and talk some girls into doing things they weren’t overly willing to do. He only wants to film “perfect 10s” which significantly narrows the number of women he could film…
    But yeah, umm… drinking hasn’t been illegal in this country for a long time, and the last time they tried, they failed. Your argument will start to at least be backable when we see all sorts of horrible things happening to rich, white males who are drinking, and then lots of people start saying “well, stupid men, they shouldn’t have been drinking!”

  5. jfaustus
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

    rocket-
    couldn’t agree more. trolls are tough to get rid of, though. especially (cough cough; downcast eyes) if you feed them.
    hey dee-linquent, mjane, and Zvebabble no more food from me. shoo!

  6. dee
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

    I don’t deny Ashley deserves her day in court. Good fucking luck with that.
    BTW, I’m not a troll and I have been posting here for years, and I am somewhat surprised at the vicious comments directed toward me because I don’t view this women as a victim.
    I’ll save my sympathies for girls and women who are truly exploited, like the FLDS females, who have NO choice over their actions.

  7. Posted April 30, 2008 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    Blah blah rape apology blah blah sexist frames blah blah.
    Blah blah blah deliberately misconstrued statement blah blah blah strawman blah blah blah arguing in bad faith blah blah blah.

  8. mjane
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    Ninapendamaishi – I did NOT blame the victim. Drink if you want, I drink, but I know my limit. I said don’t drink to excess. Every time someone says something about the victim, everyone says they are blaming them. Well, in some cases, they have made decisions that put them in those situations. Does that excuse the actions of other people? By no means, but I don’t think acting like Ashly is completley innocent is the right thing to do either.
    And jfaustus Thanks so much. I am not a troll. I am so sorry I happened to express an opinion that differed from yours. *eye roll* Excuse me for daring to voice it.

  9. EyeHeartNY
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

    I am not inclined to give someone with a business model built on coercion the benefit of the doubt (not to mention someone who physically attacks journalists who are profiling him. J linked to this article up-thread, but seriously, GO READ IT NOW.)
    The Girls Gone Wild bus came to my (smallish) town once when I was in college, and it truly is a business built on exploitation. There’s a certain segment of the populace that will do almost anything for the chance to be on TV, and curiosity about being on the bus definitely plays a role. Throw some alcohol into the deal and you’re in a situation where bad decisions are almost inevitable.
    Another big issue I take is that once you sign that consent form, their asses are covered to try to wheedle you into doing whatever they can get you to do. A couple of friends of mine offered to make out on camera, clothes on, just because they wanted to see the inside of the bus. Once they did that, the camera crew wasn’t satisfied and kept asking them to please show their boobs (I don’t think my friends relented).
    Also, it goes to show how the patriarchy sees women, and minors in particular, as only having agency when it suits them. Some of the same people who say that a woman of any age who makes a thought-out decision to go to an abortion clinic, get counseling and an ultrasound, wait 24 hours and come back for an abortion is either being coerced or is too stupid to be held accountable, are the same people who would say that all the women on Girls Gone Wild made a rational, uncoerced choice to get naked on camera (I’m sure plenty of women are enthusiastic and willing participants, and I’m not judging them).
    All of this, of course, is a moot point because GGW BROKE THE LAW. But if you hold drunk young women responsible for the ramifications of their actions it’s only fair to hold GGW accountable for the legal ramifications of its business model.

  10. mjane
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    Missed this one…
    BabyPop “Blah blah rape apology blah blah sexist frames blah blah”
    What???? What does that have to do with what I said? Where did I apologize for rape? I said that getting so drunk you regret your actions later is irresponsible. I don’t care who you are, male or female, you need to think about it before you drink.
    All of you who are calling people trolls who disagree with you seem to enjoy deliberately misinterpreting people’s words.

  11. Zvebab Ghobar
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    So we’ve defined down “coercion” to be nothing more than “peer pressure?”
    Some here even seem to think peer pressure should be an indictable offense…

  12. Theaetetus
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    Next, I seem to recall from law school too long ago that a minor’s contract is voidable at the option of the minor, presumably because a minor is not legally competent to enter into a contract. Thus, regardless of whether we saw her on video consent, or show her (fake) ID, or even sign a consent form, if she cannot consent as a legal matter, than Francis is where he should be, and that’s up shit’s creek.
    Jurisdictions are split on this one, letting minors void contracts normally, but holding minors liable for contracts they enter into fraudulently. The consent form wouldn’t matter, but showing the fake ID may.

  13. BabyPop
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    yes, most girls on there seem a bit drunk but, perhaps they should think about things before they drink that much

    Mjane and Rocket, it’s fucking Feminism 101 as far as victim blaming goes. Obv., no one is arguing that Dupree was raped, but it’s a hook, line, and sinker argument that comes with the territory of rape apologists. “Well, yes, she was too drunk to give consent, but she should have considered the fact that she’d drink to much and _______ would happen to her.” Seriously. Are we even having this conversation?

  14. mjane
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    BabyPop -
    Ok, so, because rape apologists use this line, we can’t say anything about being for reposible drinking?

  15. BabyPop
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

    See also 1 and 2.

  16. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    “What does that have to do with what I said? Where did I apologize for rape? I said that getting so drunk you regret your actions later is irresponsibl”
    Joe Francis has raped some of the girls he’s filmed for GGW. /That’s/ how it’s related. If you haven’t done much research on the GGW enterprise, maybe you should stop talking out your a$$.
    ZGhobar:
    From the Random House Dictionary:
    “COERCING: to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, esp. without regard for individual desire or volition: They coerced him into signing the document.
    2. to bring about through the use of force or other forms of compulsion; exact: to coerce obedience.
    3. to dominate or control, esp. by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.: The state is based on successfully coercing the individual.”
    If you have not experienced it, having a big group of guys chanting at you is usually pretty anxiety-inducing…

  17. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    dee:
    “I’ll save my sympathies for girls and women who are truly exploited, like the FLDS females, who have NO choice over their actions.”
    From the American Heritage Dictionary:
    “EXPLOITED: 1. To employ to the greatest possible advantage: exploit one’s talents.
    2. To make use of selfishly or unethically: a country that exploited peasant labor. See Synonyms at manipulate.
    3. To advertise; promote.”
    As you can see, being exploited has nothing to do whith whether or not said person never was able to make any choices in their life.
    Do you deny Joe Francis is acting selfishly, in wishing to profit from previously taken footage of Ms. Dupre?

  18. nerdalert
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    Will any of the moderators of Feministing please respond to me? I’ve asked this before and never get a response.
    Why do you allow trolls and MRAs to basically run these comment sections? Why is there not better moderation for a site that is supposed to be a safe space for young women? I think the main complaint I see of this blog on other blogs is that the comments sections on this site are almost unreadable.
    I know you don’t want to stifle conversation, especially on someone who is working out the feminist kinks, but there is a huge difference between a young woman coming in and defending herself for wearing high heels, and a man coming in and calling a woman a slut. Really.

  19. dee
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    Ashley wasn’t raped. And, I for one, question the ‘victim’ status.
    Yes, GGW was wrong to enter into an agreement with her if she was a minor. But, if she showed fake ID, how would they ever know? I see girls at the middle school who could pass for eighteen.
    If GGW was supplying alcohol to minors they should be in big trouble….are they?
    At some point people (women included) are going to have to wise up and take responsibility for their actions.
    I don’t know much about Ashley, but I do know she chose to be a $2000/hr call girl and live in an outrageously over-priced flat in NYC, over getting a regular job like most people do. That’s her choice, but with it comes consequences. And since prostitution is illegal and frowned upon in our society, her credibility is tarnished. I may not agree with it, but it’s the way it is.

  20. mjane
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    “Joe Francis has raped some of the girls he’s filmed for GGW. /That’s/ how it’s related. If you haven’t done much research on the GGW enterprise, maybe you should stop talking out your a$$.”
    Fine, thanks for the info but maybe you could do it more politely? Excuse me while I go back to not posting because I’m afraid to disagree with anyone here.

  21. dee
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    Ashley wasn’t raped. And, I for one, question the ‘victim’ status.
    Yes, GGW was wrong to enter into an agreement with her if she was a minor. But, if she showed fake ID, how would they ever know? I see girls at the middle school who could pass for eighteen.
    If GGW was supplying alcohol to minors they should be in big trouble….are they?
    At some point people (women included) are going to have to wise up and take responsibility for their actions.
    I don’t know much about Ashley, but I do know she chose to be a $2000/hr call girl and live in an outrageously over-priced flat in NYC, over getting a regular job like most people do. That’s her choice, but with it comes consequences. And since prostitution is illegal and frowned upon in our society, her credibility is tarnished. I may not agree with it, but it’s the way it is.

  22. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    “Ashley wasn’t raped.”
    No one has said Ashley was raped.
    The original post on this thread, as you may have noticed, was on the assholery of Joe Francis, /not/ on the morality/lack thereof of Ms. Dupre. Once again, the former is pretty indisputable, so why do you feel a need to focus on the latter?
    From the Random House Dictionary:
    “VICTIM 1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident.
    2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion.
    3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims.
    4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites. ”
    I think the second one could very easily be applicable to most 17 yr-old who think they will be seen as sexy and popular by exposing herself for a mass-produced video.
    “But, if she showed fake ID, how would they ever know? I see girls at the middle school who could pass for eighteen.”
    Doesn’t matter. At all. If a bar serves a minor with a fake, the bar can lose it’s liquor license. Our laws place the responsibility on the supplier/video-taper/whatever…
    “At some point people (women included) are going to have to wise up and take responsibility for their actions. ”
    Yeah. Which is pretty much what Joe Francis is hopefully going to have to do here. I doubt Ms. Dupre will continue to work as a call girl, but again, that latter fact has /nothing to do/ with whether or not Joe Francis should be allowed to profit from her video footage, and she should not.
    I mean I hate to continue assisting in your tirade to derail this thread, but all in all, Joe Francis is far richer than Ms. Dupre, and has done far more horrible things to far more many people than Ms. Dupre. /Why/ are you so intent on focusing on the transgressions of Ms. Dupre? And if you one (subjective) wrong can cancel out other, totally different and unrelated wrongs, then where do you draw the line??

  23. jfaustus
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    longtime posters can be trolls too. i tried to look at previous comments you each may have made but the search function doesn’t work here the way it does on other blogs.
    so i just have to go by what you’re saying.
    Dee: Coercion is a continuum. On the zero end are bunny rabbits and rainbows. On the lots and lots end are guns and loony retreats like the FLDS. It is a tired anti-feminist meme to contrast social coercion with the guns end of the spectrum in order to deny the force of social coercion. We legally protect minors precisely because theyu are more vulnerable to the kind of pressure GGW specializes in (see EyeHeartNY above).
    mjane: It is a tired anti-feminist meme that women who have been drinking are partly to blame when someone else chooses to violate their rights. That meme is most commonly deployed in defense of rapists. Hence, I think, BabyPop’s jab at you. In this case, GGW chose to violate Ashley’s right (as a minor) to be free from sexual exploitation. GGW’s choice, and their culpability for it, is unrelated to Ashley’s state of sobriety.
    Yet when you say “I hate those GGW commercials, and yes, most girls on there seem a bit drunk but, perhaps they should think about things before they drink that much,” (my emphasis) you do relate those two things.
    If you don’t want to be labelled a troll, don’t traffic in anti-feminist memes.

  24. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 4:20 pm | Permalink

    “I don’t know much about Ashley, but I do know she chose to be a $2000/hr call girl and live in an outrageously over-priced flat in NYC”
    What if, just what /if/, you learned that she was among the 90% of sex workers who had been raped or otherwise significantly abused before the age of 18? Would that at all change your opinion towards her?

  25. Zvebab Ghobar
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    having a big group of guys chanting at you is usually pretty anxiety-inducing…
    http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=64874
    That’s got to be one of the most ,ahem, unique manifestation of anxiety I’ve ever seen.
    Do any of you other ladies get naked and start craving a little girl-on-girl when you feel “anxiety” coming on?

  26. dee
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    nerdalert et al,
    I am not a troll. And I’m sorry I hit such a nerve by calling her a slut. I apologize.
    I am also a woman and a rape survivor. No, I did not ask for it but I was really stupid and put myself in a dangerous position. Looking back, I shouldn’t have been surprised by the outcome and I’m lucky to be here to talk about it.
    As for Joe Francis, if he is guilty of everything you are saying about him then I hope they nail him.
    I also hope Ms. Dupre wises up.

  27. BabyPop
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    Zvebab Ghobar is obv. a troll based on other threads I’ve seen him on. We can stop feeding that one.
    Dee you seem to be a bit more open to what some of us are saying, so I apologize for being so harsh. I am sorry for what you went through, but even in talking about your own experiences, you seem to blame yourself for your own assault. Now, I’m not going to sit here and say the way you cope with what happened to you is unacceptable, but please realize that the ONLY PERSON deserving the blame for crimes committed are the criminals.
    We can discuss societal factors (slut-shaming, misogyny, etc) of course, but ultimately the criminal is the one responsible for the crime. Not the victim. Dupree’s hourly rate as a prostitute is beside the point. Dupree’s over-priced rent is beside the point. IT DOESN’T MATTER. It is ridiculous to attack HER credibility because of these matters and NOT consider the credibility of poor Mr. Francis, whose victimization of women/girls has been well documented.
    And as someone said upthread:

    Also, a feminism that only protects/advocates for the sweet virginal girl next door who never gets into any trouble is incomplete at best, pretty much irrelevant at worst.

  28. dee
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    “Coercion is a continuum.”
    What coercion? I keep hearing about it but see no evidence of it. Ashley was having a wonderful time during that video and it obviously wasn’t the first time she danced bump and grind.
    Some of you make it sound like she was drugged with a gun held to her head. I don’t buy it.
    And I agree with Zvebab Ghobar’s comments.
    I’m not blaming Dupre, just that she brought this on herself and her lawsuit for $10 million is pretty pathetic. Obviously the downloads from her mediocre song must have dried up.
    I never pressed charges when I was gang raped. I knew what would have happened to me had I gone to court. But I was stupid. I know I was not to blame for what happened but I facilitated it.
    The thing that gets me is when you engage in certain actions, don’t be surprised if things go south. You hang with bad guys, they can turn on you. You hang with thieves, you just might get arrested too if they are caught stealing. You get drunk and dance with your clothes off, don’t act surprised when the tape ends up on You Tube.

  29. BabyPop
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    Uh, okay…that whole thing I said about you seeming to be more open to what some of us are saying and that you’re not really a troll? I take it all back.
    Some of you make it sound like she was drugged with a gun held to her head. I don’t buy it.
    You don’t have to buy it. The courts do. And the courts have repeatedly “bought” the fact that giving a minor alcohol with the intent to coerce consent = illegal.
    And since you’re having trouble: coerce: to compel to an act or choice
    And to follow up: compel: to cause to do or occur by overwhelming pressure
    No gun needed, Dee.

  30. leah
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    dee – “What coercion? I keep hearing about it but see no evidence of it. ”
    In the eyes of the law any minor, which Ashley was at 17, is not able to consent to legal contracts or sexual activity. In the eyes of the law, ANY sexual activity performed by a minor for an adult is ipso facto coercion. Likewise, ANY contract signed by someone drunk is ipso facto coercion. A minor cannot consent, nor can someone who is drunk, to sexual acts or contracts, making any sexual act or framed contract ipso facto coercion.

  31. dee
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    Well, we’ll have to wait and see what the courts say. This should be interesting, to say the least.

  32. jfaustus
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    dee-singenuous: Let’s try that again, shall we?
    I said: “Coercion is a continuum. On the zero end are bunny rabbits and rainbows. On the lots and lots end are guns and loony retreats like the FLDS. It is a tired anti-feminist meme to contrast social coercion with the guns end of the spectrum in order to deny the force of social coercion.”
    You said: “Some of you make it sound like she was drugged with a gun held to her head. I don’t buy it.”
    Exactly what I described.
    Thank you for playing.

  33. MLEmac
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    I thought I had posted this earlier, but for some reason it didn’t work….
    The CNN article says that she was drunk. The drinks were bought by GGW cronies, and then she was brought back to the bus.
    And just because she’s smiling in the video does not mean she gave consent. I was once taken advantage of while I was drunk, and while I seemed to have “enjoyed it” I actually wanted to tear my hair out the next day.
    No, she is not a baby, she is a girl who got taken advantage of while she was drunk, and the evidence of that is being distributed via late night commercials that open with the music of a steel drum.
    No she’s not a baby, but she was exploited, and she is a victim. If you think the laws are fucked up, then fine, but that doesn’t change the fact that she wasn’t emacipated at the time, and it was still against the law.
    If you have nothing against the Spitzer thing, then why do you keep bringing it up? She got immunity, deal with it. It’s too late for her to be prosecuted now, so stop whining. Just because she got off for that, doesn’t mean this asshole shouldn’t still get prosecuted for taking naked pictures of a minor.
    Also, Child-pornography I believe involves pre-pubescent children, however, she was still a minor which makes it illegal.

  34. mjane
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    jfaustus: “It is a tired anti-feminist meme that women who have been drinking are partly to blame when someone else chooses to violate their rights. That meme is most commonly deployed in defense of rapists. Hence, I think, BabyPop’s jab at you. In this case, GGW chose to violate Ashley’s right (as a minor) to be free from sexual exploitation. GGW’s choice, and their culpability for it, is unrelated to Ashley’s state of sobriety.
    Yet when you say “I hate those GGW commercials, and yes, most girls on there seem a bit drunk but, perhaps they should think about things before they drink that much,” (my emphasis) you do relate those two things.
    If you don’t want to be labelled a troll, don’t traffic in anti-feminist memes.”
    I don’t think GGW is less culpable because Ashley was drinking, HOWEVER, I don’t think the state of someone’s sobriety makes them any less responsible for their actions at the time, either. That is the point I am trying to make but you keep twisting it into an anti-feminist one. Man or woman, you are still responsible for your actions while drinking. I am not excusing someone raping someone while the victim is drunk. If the rapist was drunk I would say they are just as responsible for their actions while drinking than as if they were sober, and I’m sure you would agree with that. I am trying to make the point that people need to think about how their actions will affect themselves and other people before they act, hence the thinking about things before you drink that much comment.
    If I drank too much to drive, then I would have to find a way to get home. If I hadn’t arranged a way to get home after being out drinking, then I probably should have thought about those drinks before I had them.
    Flashing a camera while you are drinking, you are just responsible for that than as if you did it while you were sober.
    Should GGW be held responsible if they gave her the drinks? Yes, and they shouldn’t have let her sign the form if they did so because she was not legal drinking age where they were, even with the supposed fake ID.

  35. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    wow dee,
    “I never pressed charges when I was gang raped. I knew what would have happened to me had I gone to court. But I was stupid. I know I was not to blame for what happened but I facilitated it. ”
    Did you seek counseling for this, at least?
    You, nor any woman, ever ever ever does anything to facilitate gang rape. You were not “stupid” if you had not expected to be gang-raped. There is /nothing/ “stupid” about expecting not to be gang-raped. Ever. No matter what. I’m not qualified as a counselor, of course, but if I was in a position to give advice I’d say this: Repeat that to yourself. Repeat that to yourself until you can believe it. There is nothing “stupid” about expecting not to be raped. Ever.
    I’m so sorry for what happened.

  36. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

    “Ashley wasn’t raped.”
    Oh wait -when you said this were you meaning that /never in her life/ has Ashley been raped? You don’t know that. I don’t know that. 1/3rd of women have been raped, and you can’t know by listening to someone/looking at them/watching their actions who they are and are not.
    “Ashley was having a wonderful time during that video”
    How do you know? It’s not hard to smile for a camera, you know. Ever hear of acting? She may not have been suffering per se, but again, you and I have no idea what complex thoughts (or lack thereof) she might have been having about the matter.
    “and it obviously wasn’t the first time she danced bump and grind. ”
    What does this have to do with /anything/?
    “I’m not blaming Dupre, just that she brought this on herself ”
    Umm… What’s that geometric optical illusion called, you know the one with the funky knot where you’re following one side of a ribbon with your eye and then it turns into the other side of the ribbon, and you’re not quite sure where it happened?
    “her lawsuit for $10 million is pretty pathetic”
    Not as pathetic as all the money Joe Francis makes off of his videos…

  37. Posted April 30, 2008 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    What coercion? I keep hearing about it but see no evidence of it. Ashley was having a wonderful time during that video and it obviously wasn’t the first time she danced bump and grind.
    As has been pointed out, there is a magical thing called postproduction. In postproduction, they can resequence footage and cut out the bits they don’t want. For example, GGW probably wouldn’t want footage of uneasy, uncomfortable facial expressions, so that would be cut out (this is called editing). Can you honestly say that you know how many takes it took to get a shot of her smiling?
    And even if it took just one, that means precisely nothing about the issue of coercion.
    Hell, I once smiled through an assault. I was scared shitless and trying to deny it was happening. Does that mean I wasn’t coerced?

  38. jfaustus
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    mjane: what you’re saying is antifeminist because you insist on linking “think before you drink” with “violation”.
    In the abstract, “think before you drink” makes a lot of sense, of course. You don’t want to fall down the stairs, or stick something pointy in your eyes, or eat really bad curry and spend the next day on the toilet.
    But this isn’t the abstract. You are continually juxtaposing Ashley’s drinking with GGW violating her rights. You deny that you’re saying they’re less culpable, but you are. You are, by the constant juxtaposition and what it implies. You are, explicitly, when you use “but” to link a statement about GGW with a statement about her being drunk.
    And here’s where you’re wrong: Planning for being violated should NEVER be part of “think before you drink” because people should NEVER NEVER NEVER violate each other the way GGW routinely does its ‘models.’ People don’t need to adjust their calculus because there are asshole rapists out there, or asshole underage pornographers.
    ASSHOLE RAPISTS AND ASSHOLE UNDERAGE PORNOGRAPHERS AND THEIR ILK NEED TO BE REMOVED FROM THE CALCULUS. PERIOD.
    You keep saying or implying the former rather than the latter, which is why I find your points objectionable.

  39. Waterpixi
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

    (yikes to all the above comments…)
    what i think is interesting in that statement Joe Francis made (“But I think it’s ironic that she charged Gov. Spitzer $2,000 for sex and she wants to charge me 10 million for taking some naked pictures of her…I feel like I’m getting a raw deal.”) is that it seems that he’s implying he somehow deserves more, like all he got was some dirty pictures and he thinks he’s entitled to more (either due to the profession she afterwards entered, or just simply because she’s a woman and, hey, he’s entitled to all that). Oh, Joe, are you just so sad that all you got was pictures of her topless? Poor you. Because all women are just here to make sure you never get the raw end of the deal.
    Sheesh. Joe, if only you had thought this through, you wouldn’t be getting the raw deal you are. Have fun at that pity party.

  40. mjane
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

    jfaustus: I am meaning the more abstract version of what you wrote up there on the think before you drink version. In my mind, I do not link what I said with violation, I’m sorry you take it that way. Perhaps we are not explaining our beliefs to each other in way the other one understands. I don’t feel what I say is anti-feminist but some people apparently do feel like it is. I had not been aware before that this was anti-feminist. How about we just drop the argument now? Neither of us are changing the other one and we aren’t getting any where with the argument. I don’t feel I’m a troll because of my opinions, I said them because that’s what I felt, not to provoke anyone. I am going to stop posting on this thread because we are just going in circles on this argument.

  41. radrobyn
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 7:56 pm | Permalink

    There’s a posting from a few days ago over at Racialicious about how Joe Francis compared himself to civil rights leaders in an interview. Anyone else see that? He thinks he’s being persecuted! Not only is this guy a complete, pompous, ass, he’s also completely delusional!

  42. Farhat
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    I think they should calculate the total amount Joe Francis has made off of his videos, divide that by the number of boobs in there, and twice that amount could go to her.

  43. Liena
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    I just read the LA Times article (here) that a couple commenters have linked to, and it’s really horrifying that Joe Francis gets away with so much. It seems clear that his business is based on exploitation.
    Ninapendamaishi, where did you find the statistic that 90% of sex workers have been raped or otherwise abused before the age of 18? I’m just curious since I don’t know much about violence against sex workers, and that’s really scary.

  44. dee
    Posted April 30, 2008 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    If Ashley was “acting” in the video, she should get a goddamn Academy Award.
    The bottom line is: Ashley is a $2K/hr call girl and now she is suing GGW because they “exploited” her and are making money (that she wants) off her video.
    If someone can convince me why I should feel sorry for this woman, have at ‘er.
    I think Ashley gets it, at least as far as what men want.
    Do any of you think Ashley is a feminist? Do feminists use their bodies (ample breasts) to pad their bank account and keep from having to work the 9-5 jobs that many of us have?
    I am asking this in all honesty. Is Ashley helping or hurting the cause of feminism?

  45. Kristi
    Posted May 1, 2008 at 12:25 am | Permalink

    Dee -
    Whether Ashley is helping or hurting the cause of feminism doesn’t matter when it comes to defending her against some of the slut-shaming comments you and others have been making in this thread. Are we only supposed to stand up for women who meet all of our feminist credentials now? Any other woman is fair game for the patriarchy?

  46. Posted May 1, 2008 at 12:36 am | Permalink

    I am asking this in all honesty. Is Ashley helping or hurting the cause of feminism?
    Let’s try a little reframe here:
    Is engaging in a discourse that is dangerously close to rape apologetics and condoning the sexual exploitation of a minor (which she was at the time) helping or hurting the cause of feminism?

  47. alicepaul
    Posted May 1, 2008 at 12:37 am | Permalink

    “Do feminists use their bodies (ample breasts) to pad their bank account and keep from having to work the 9-5 jobs that many of us have?”
    yay, it’s the tired old “sex workers are selfish, greedy, lazy, money-grubbing dumb drunk bitches who should just shut-the-fuck-up” routine! Straight outta the Patriarchy handbook, I might add.
    None of us know if Ashley considers herself a feminist. And it’s irrelevant anyway.
    What’s certainly ANTI-feminist is to decide how much money IMAGES OF AN UNDERAGE GIRL’S BODY are worth if THAT BODY IS NOT YOURS.
    This seems to be something you and Joe Francis have in common.

  48. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted May 1, 2008 at 12:41 am | Permalink

    “If Ashley was “acting” in the video, she should get a goddamn Academy Award.”
    Someone can have complex thoughts about an issue, you know. Maybe you can’t. But I can assure you some of us can. Like maybe she thought it would be fun, but maybe she had reservations. Maybe she was at first shy, but after enough yelling from the crowd plus the intoxication she got into it more. The facts remain that A) she was underage, B) she was intoxicated, C) there was peer pressure (you can /hear/ the guys hollering and whistling in the back in that video) D) the whole debacle wouldn’t exist if Joe Francis didn’t exist and profit off of the images of others who are often harassed and who are certainly not compensated
    “The bottom line is: Ashley is a $2K/hr call girl and now she is suing GGW because they “exploited” her and are making money (that she wants) off her video. ”
    So /what/? She deserves the money more than /he/ does.
    And even if she has made “$1 million” as some claim, there are many people in our country that have made far more money than that in ways that involved screwing over other people far more. In fact, I don’t believe we’ve learned of anyone outside herself Ms. Dupre /has/ hurt -Spitzer hurt himself, basically. This is a witch hunt. Because she’s a woman, and a sexually deviant one at that, and one with some degree of self-interest, at that.
    “Do feminists use their bodies (ample breasts) to pad their bank account and keep from having to work the 9-5 jobs that many of us have? ”
    Are you jealous of Ashley, or something? Would you rather have had her jobs? If not, then /why so much anger at her for what she does/?

  49. kenyatticee
    Posted May 1, 2008 at 12:53 am | Permalink

    Wow!!!The commenters that have totally crapped all over dee et al. Good for you dee and others for holding to your unpopular opinions.
    Is this site supposed to be a place where all should feel that they can post opinions no matter how unpopular…or is this a site that has to be an echo chamber for the ‘correct’ feminist opinion?? Unbelievable….

  50. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted May 1, 2008 at 12:55 am | Permalink

    Some statistics, for whoever asked (You know statistics are always imperfect, and vary from study to study, but here are some different ones I found that should give you a general idea):
    “A 1995 study by the National Criminal Justice Reference Service (NCJRS) found that people who were sexually abused as children are a whopping 27.7 times as likely as others to be arrested for prostitution. ”
    “The CIR study showed that 21.4 percent of women working as escorts had been raped 10 times or more, with comparable rates for other types of sex work. ”
    http://www.rapeis.org/activism/prostitution/sexworkerscivilrights.htm
    “Eighty-two percent of these respondents reported having been physically assaulted since entering prostitution. Of those who had been physically assaulted, 55% had been assaulted by customers. Eighty-eight percent had been physically threatened while in prostitution, and 83% had been physically threatened with a weapon….Sixty-eight percent…reported having been raped since entering prostitution. Forty-eight percent had been raped more than five times. Forty-six percent of those who reported rapes stated that they had been raped by customers. ”
    “Fifty-seven percent reported a history of childhood sexual abuse, by an average of 3 perpetrators. Forty-nine percent of those who responded reported that as children, they had been hit or beaten by a caregiver until they had bruises or were injured in some way…Many seemed profoundly uncertain as to just what “abuse” is. When asked why she answered “no” to the question regarding childhood sexual abuse, one woman whose history was known to one of the interviewers said: “Because there was no force, and, besides, I didn’t even know what it was then – I didn’t know it was sex.” ”
    http://womensissues.about.com/od/rapesexualassault/a/Wuornos.htm

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