Not what we mean when we say no marriage.

I know I shouldn’t give this any light, but I just had to because sometimes things–so perfectly– capture some of the darkest corners of Western patriarchy. A friend just sent me a link she found with the search terms “Vietnamese women.” It is attached to a bigger site called No Marriage, a site for why men should not get married. Let’s just say the reasons offered are not because marriage is an inequitable, homophobic and sexist tradition.
It is because American women are aggressive (raceless?) bitches and Vietnamese women are quiet, subservient and, you know, stay in their place.

An American woman has several fundamental problems that will never go away and that will get much worse a few years after she is married:
1. Her inherent anti-male bias and pre-occupation with fairness that was drilled into her at high school, college, and through the media. Her constant confrontations and trying to prove herself and to make a point.
2. Her self-centeredness, her ridiculously high expectations, her sense of entitlement, her high-maintenance, superficial, and stuck up attitude, her snootiness and her sense of superiority. This “princess” syndrome means that she will always think that she is better than you, and that she deserves and she is entitled to whatever she wants from you.
3. Her general mental instability and psychological disorders.
4. Her using sex as a weapon and reward to get things.
Vietnamese women generally don’t have any of these problems. Marrying an American woman simply does not make sense. The ONLY reason men stay with American women is because they did not have enough exposure to Vietnamese women. Any man who spent a few months in Asia will not even look at American women again.

I will not state the obvious and give anymore credence to the specific arguments. What is amazing is that this sounds ridiculous to us, but in some circles this is an acceptable narrative (in fact in a lot of circles). A type of racism that just falls between the cracks and outside of dominant racial discourse, aka, the seemingly harmless “desires” of the Asiophile (white boy with the Asian fetish usually found saying things like, “if you want to get laid, Thailand is the place to go!”).
I would like to thank this idiot for giving me the opportunity to talk about one of my biggest peeves.

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135 Comments

  1. Itazura
    Posted June 13, 2007 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    I meant to say that I don’t think modesty is a bad trait to have

  2. Itazura
    Posted June 13, 2007 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    I meant to say that I don’t think modesty is a bad trait to have

  3. anorak
    Posted June 13, 2007 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    Ahhh, ok.
    Over to you manda, dood is creeping me out now.

  4. manda
    Posted June 13, 2007 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    Wow! Just. fucking. wow.
    I was expecting an interesting response, but that just takes the damn cake. Apparently Asian women (as a group) have a particular “taste” than women from other areas of the world?!? I just don’t even know how to respond to that shit.

  5. anorak
    Posted June 13, 2007 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    Yeah, manda, didn’t you know? continental Asians have a soy sauce flavour, Indians taste like curry, Britons taste like mutton pies etc etc etc.
    I hear American women taste like hot dogs, or pop corn or something…

  6. manda
    Posted June 13, 2007 at 11:19 pm | Permalink

    No, silly, American women taste like apple pie. :P

  7. peachtree
    Posted June 13, 2007 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    This also takes the cake. Tooling around that newly discovered site I noted above is this sick piece of poetry that just serves to break women into different imaginary camps -
    http://www.online-dating-rights.com/forum/index.php?topic=697.0
    DON’T MARRY AMERICAN RADICAL FEMINIST WOMEN by Lestat
    I have traveled widely to Europe and Asia and I want to share this well-known observation – American feminist women have a terrible reputation among men around the world. They are widely perceived as obese, selfish, spoiled, boorish and emotionally demanding. They are also considered rather overbearing and hysterical. It’s well known amongst expat communities around the world that American feminist women are shunned by men outside of U.S.A.
    On the contrary, decent and well-off American men are generally viewed as the “cream of the crop” – highly coveted and desirable…. These gentlemen enjoy a great reputation among foreign ladies who perceive them to be respectful, nurturing, responsible, well-educated and financially secure. In addition, these women believe that American men make great husbands, especially in contrast to native men, who are often disrespectful, abusive and unfaithful.
    The problem in this country is that the “best in the world” are often paired up with the “worst in the world”…. a complete mismatch. It’s like a highschool Prom King dating an ugly, domineering and boorish girl. It’s very unlikely this type of relationship will work out. Sadly, this seems to be the case, as the marriages “made in America” have a higher divorce rate (55 to 60 percent) than in the cross-cultural marriages (15 to 20 percent). So why is risk of divorce so much lower when an American gentleman marries a “mail-order bride”? In a nutshell, it’s because our Prom King is marrying a Prom Queen, who is beautiful, intelligent, feminine, appreciative and devoted.
    A growing number of affluent American men are rejecting American feminist women and going overseas to embrace loverly, young foreign brides. A nearly fourfold increase in foreign women entering the U.S. on fiance(e) visas (over the last 7 years) supports this contention. It’s no secret that by pursuing foreign women, men can find much younger, more attractive and devoted partners than what’s available at home.
    Let me tell you about the relationship between my loverly Russian wife and myself. Despite our 21 year age difference, our relationship is based on mutual love and admiration…. our love is real and valid. Also, our bond is strengthened by our common interests, continual romance and mutual respect for each other. As with most Russian women, my wife is independent and has a strong will. Our relationship is a 50-50 equal partnership. There is no control and no domination.
    My experience, as described above, is very typical of most marriages to “mail-order brides” – in contrast to many marriages “made in America”, there are no bitchiness or nagging, no hysteria or drama and no belligerant or confrontational behaviors…. only mutual love and admiration.
    Therefore…., when a decent and affluent American gentleman marries a young, lovely foreign bride, what’s created is truly, a match made in heaven – the best matched with the best…. And IMBRA is really a vindictive and scornful feminist response to growing international romance.
    *****
    I want to inform modern American feminists of this new reality: most American men do not want you. They do not want to date you and they certainly do not want to marry you. Do you know why? Because any relationships with you pose too much legal and financial risks to American men. The enormous risks of divorce and financial insolvency that men face when they marry you is no longer justified by paltry (often minimum) rewards that you bring to a marriage. Thus, you are being scorned and ignored by a growing number of affluent American men who prefer more feminine and traditional foreign women who offer youth, beauty and loyalty, the qualities you lack. These men realize that by marrying foreign women, they incur lower risk of divorce and greater probability of successful marriage and happiness. Therefore,… many of you will never marry or have children… you will end up like one of your own, Maria Cantwell – old, un-married, completely childless, living with mommy… You need to understand that by depriving and denying your biological instinct to create, love and nurture a family, modern feminism has created a royal road to oblivion that ends with your emptiness, bitterness and despair. Whatever traits or value you carried in your genes will stop with you. No children, no legacy… When you die, you truely die.
    A growing number of men now make no apologies for rejecting any modern feminist women. The enormous risks incurred in marrying an American feminist are simply not justified by minimal or no rewards that these relationships bring. An American gentleman now has to walk through a minefield of risks including false abuse claims, financial bankrupcy (from divorce), and denial of child visitation rights. Thus, any intelligent and self-respecting man would reject this modern feminist paradigm of marriage.

  8. anorak
    Posted June 13, 2007 at 11:24 pm | Permalink

    Of course! Why didn’t I think of that?

  9. Itazura
    Posted June 13, 2007 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

    Actually every woman has her own unique taste, and I have never met one that tasted bad. Sorry I didn’t mean to offend to anyone. But I doubt I will ever go down on any other woman other than an Asian women (my wife) ever again.

  10. anorak
    Posted June 13, 2007 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

    I mean about the apple pie flavour!

  11. anorak
    Posted June 13, 2007 at 11:30 pm | Permalink

    Wow, Peachtree, that’s pretty special.
    Who is Maria Cantwell?

  12. peachtree
    Posted June 13, 2007 at 11:32 pm | Permalink

    Maria Cantwell is a Senator, from WA I think

  13. manda
    Posted June 13, 2007 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    Maria Cantwell is a senator from Washington State.

  14. peachtree
    Posted June 13, 2007 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    The original subject of this post, that site, is maybe humorous but the implications of American men / Thirld World foreign women as a subject is worth studying. It seems, from just looking around the Internet, that foreign women are being used as tools among certain (and maybe growing) groups of men to undermine/trivialize feminist-based accomplishments. Its difficult to determine at this point what the long-term ramifications are.

  15. anorak
    Posted June 13, 2007 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    Thanks both of you. (I am not an American, so I don’t always get the references)
    I just read more of the thread it comes from.
    *bursts into song*
    “I feel icky,
    oh so icky,
    I feel icky,
    and sticky and gross!!!”

  16. Itazura
    Posted June 13, 2007 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    Also my opinion that Asian people (both men and women) are more intelligent than Americans is based not on genetics (note that I said Americans not white people), but on the fact that Asian nations such as Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Malaysia, and Hong Kong (all the Asian nations I have been to) have much better educational systems than what we have here in America, so much so that I probably will raise my kids in Japan.
    I never understood why Americans (for the most part) hate to cook, where as in Asian cultures cooking is a form of romance. The best date a Japanese couple could have it to go home and cook dinner for each other.
    And the whole shoe thing in the house is just disgusting. Why do Americans track dog shit into their homes?

  17. dinogirl
    Posted June 13, 2007 at 11:49 pm | Permalink

    Sarah, I know, I’ve done the pro-life sites thing too. And I still often check Ladies Against Feminism. It’s partly when you get a real doozie, like in Samhita’s post – it’s like, a nice feeling to read something so stupid, because you’re reminded how totally ridiculous anti-feminist positions truly are. And it’s interesting to get a window on how other people view the world – it can help give ideas for how some can be persuaded.
    But the MRA sites are completely MAD, and most of them are just vehicles for their author’s delusions and persecution complexes (if it wasn’t anti-feminism, it would be white supremacism or something equally vile). There’s no changing their minds, and there’s nothing to be gained from looking at them. I fear cold turkey is the only way for me too! Thanks for reassuring me it’s not just me reading stuff like this and banging my head against the screen!

  18. anorak
    Posted June 13, 2007 at 11:51 pm | Permalink

    You are right, peachtree. While I have no problem with inter-ethnic/national whatever couples, the whole sphere of sex tourism and related issues like mail-order brides is pretty fucking scary.
    It is important to remember that women indeveloping countries have their own agency, and will make decisions based on what is best for them, but it’s hard to see it as a level playing field when your choices are indentured poverty or the possibilties offered by a Green Card.

  19. anorak
    Posted June 13, 2007 at 11:57 pm | Permalink

    dinogirl + sarahmc,
    my partner’s favourite internet sites are rightwing blogs.
    He loves to go on them and read the craziness, then post innocent-sounding stupid questions, and let the good times roll! I guess you could say he trolls wingnuts, but in a pretty subtle way.
    I’ve told him he is very naughty, but he gets a kick out of it, and he still reads the good progressive/feminist sites too, so it’s really a balanced diet!
    I guess the rule of thumb should be: if it’s giving you a stomach ulcer, it’s time to stop.

  20. Itazura
    Posted June 13, 2007 at 11:58 pm | Permalink

    My wife has a green card, but she doesn’t need it for work, because she doesn’t work in America. But I would like to think that she married me for my personality and humor, at least that what she told me when she agreed to married to marry me.

  21. anorak
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    I wasn’t refering to you and your wife, Itazura.

  22. Itazura
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 12:05 am | Permalink

    Obviously you can tell she didn’t marry me for my immaculate writting abilities.
    We may be confusing individual Asian cultures for all Asian cultures. I wish we could obtain a comment from a Vietnamese mail order bride.

  23. anorak
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 12:10 am | Permalink

    Right, Itazura, if you read my comment again you’ll see I refered to women from developing countries.
    Last time I checked, Japan didn’t fit that description.

  24. anorak
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 12:11 am | Permalink

    I have now misspelled referred twice.
    I am just posting this to show I can spell referred. See? REFERRED!

  25. Posted June 14, 2007 at 12:12 am | Permalink

    DON’T MARRY AMERICAN RADICAL FEMINIST WOMEN by Lestat
    Note to self: DON’T MARRY INSECURE FANBOYS!
    *dinogirl: I go through phases like that where I randomly check out the webpages of groups I hate. I used to read the “Conservative Women” group on Myspace. It was so sad, all ranting about unisex bathrooms.
    *ponies and rainbows: I love Big Bad Chinese Mama! Too bad it hasn’t been updated in a bit…

  26. Itazura
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 12:14 am | Permalink

    Anorak do you know any mail order brides from a developing Asian nation?
    I had thought mail order brides was more of a problem in NZ and Australia than it was in America.

  27. peachtree
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 12:14 am | Permalink

    Anorak, these websites that promote the notion of foreign women as “goodwife” vs “bad american woman” are a magnet for perhaps many men. That is, I think it is reaching a more mainstream American male market. Its not too crazy to think that this message could cause men to disrespect women in general and especially feminist-based social constructs that have been guiding men toward a more feminist way of thinking.

  28. Itazura
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 12:20 am | Permalink

    Actually all the mail order brides from developing nations I have met, are the toughest women I know (though none of them consider themselves feminist), so maybe conservative desperate men bringing them to this country is actually a good thing for feminism.

  29. anorak
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 12:35 am | Permalink

    Peachtree – I see your point. I guess I hope that doesn’t happen, if you were a slightly insecure man to start off with, and you hear that bullshit enough times, you might start to believe it…
    Itazura, I don’t know any “mail-order” brides personally, and I think it’s interesting you think of it as something that happens more often in my geographical neighbourhood, I really don’t know if it is or isn’t, but I’m interested in how you came to that conclusion…
    I do know personally a guy who lived in the Philipines for a year and had many offers of marriage, and dated a woman there, who, judging from the photos, would be “out of his league” back here.

  30. ouyangdan
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 1:32 am | Permalink

    I work/socialize with asian people every day!!! (including my WONDERFUL asian boyfriend) Let me tell you a few things…
    My direct supervisor is Viet, and she is anything but subservant. She knows how things go and isn’t afraid to tell the men under her that they are wrong.
    next: “she laughs and says if you ask korean men they will say that nothing is scarier than a korean woman when you piss her off :)
    I know quite a bit about Korean and Chinese culture. This statement is so true! Modern Korean women are running the show! Their sons fear even going pee w/o their permission!!! This continues until his wife (of mother’s choosing!) takes over for her. Feminism is rising in the east!
    Finally, because I KNOW men like this…these things from that website are all things my daughter’s father tried to use against me. He thought I had ‘princess syndrome’ and that I was going to fill my daughter’s head w/ my superiority crap. You know…there is a reason i never married him! And if I DO fill her head with the “crap” that she is equal, and entitled to be heard and respected…then great!

  31. Itazura
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 1:35 am | Permalink

    I am not in my wife’s league here or there (Japan).
    I know absolutely nothing about NZ, and only a little bit about Sydney and Brisbane (having visited both of those cities). But I reading something about mail order brides being common in NZ and Australia, but I can’t remember where. Though it make sense because Australia and NZ are so close to the more under developed parts of Asia.
    If it is not more common in NZ, please accept my apology.
    Though what do you think of my comment that mail order brides are actually good for feminism?

  32. Itazura
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 1:47 am | Permalink

    “Feminism is rising in the east!”
    Very very true, and you only have to watch Asian movies and TV dramas to get a sense of the rising feminism (Especially Korean) in the East. In Singapore a man has to leave the bar or club if a women disproves of him, in Taiwan a high percentage of women don’t change their names after marriage, in South Korea and in Japan the number of female college grads is starting to over take the number of male grads. But I think it all has to do with the fact that native (I acknowledge that authentic was a terrible term to use) Asian men show more respect to women than American men do.

  33. Posted June 14, 2007 at 2:16 am | Permalink

    Did you notice he has that “Marriage contract” guy (click my link) on there giving him an online high five as something he at least figured out keeping them bitches in line.
    The marriage contract guy that is also on trail for child molestation. Quite the hero.

  34. anorak
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 2:46 am | Permalink

    Ouyangdan, sounds like you “dodged a bullet” by not marrying your daughter’s father!
    Good one!
    Itazura, I really don’t think the mail-order bride phenomenon aids the feminist cause.

  35. anorak
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 2:49 am | Permalink

    And Niobe, I hope that sick fucko rots in jail for the rest of his life.
    I don’t know if that’s fair, but he makes me physically sick.

  36. Itazura
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 3:28 am | Permalink

    “I really don’t think the mail-order bride phenomenon aids the feminist cause.”
    Here’s why I think it does.
    First it gives economically desperate women from developed nations cash, regrettably for the wrong reasons, but it is still badly needed cash that the woman can use to better her situation. Secondly the desperate usually white conservative husband to be of the mail order wife has become complicit in increasing the percentage of minorities within his mostly Caucasian nation. Aren’t recently empowered women from developed nations, and the next generation of the increasing number of minorities likely to support the future feminism cause?
    Case in point my family. My wife has become empowered through me. Wait, no, that’s not true, all she gets from me that she couldn’t get on her own is good orgasms (actually she can get those without me, but she says they are better with me). But still if she becomes a US citizen, she is certain to vote in favor of feminism positions. And my children, who have already felt racism, were supports of Senators Clinton and Obama before I was.

  37. Siamese
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 6:02 am | Permalink

    You know beeing a good earner and definetly wanting marriage I preferably want to marry somebody who is not likely to divorce me and take me to the cleaners.
    Is your mom divorced ? No marriage for you. Is the divorce rate for your nationality vastly higher than that for lets say Japan or Italy ? No marriage for you eithier.
    Is it so wrong for a guy to look for a girl that is more likely to make his life better and less likely to take him to the cleaners ?

  38. Feliza Navidad
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    Actually I am an Asiophile, and have been happily married to an authentic Asian woman for over 7 years now. I never was interested in “white girls,” but I had a taste for Asian women for reasons other than what the cavemen of “no marriage” suggested. I love Asian food cooking abilities, slightly darker skin, alluring eyes, modest personalities, and high levels of creativity in women, and Asian women (particularly from Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan) fit that bill perfectly.
    Is “modest personality” a bad sterotype?

    Perhaps I’m dredging up a topic that may no longer be relevant in this thread, but I can’t help but comment.
    Is a “modest personality” a bad stereotype. Well, yes, it is. While modesty is often a positive trait to have, the presumption of modesty (or any other trait) is dangerous because it encourages one to see another person not as the uniquely formed human being that they are, but as a one-dimensional character. It’s like coming up to a black female and assuming that she is assertive and good at cooking soul food–not exactly bad traits to have, but unfair to impose upon someone else because of their ethnicity.
    Ok, you’re an Asiophile. Seemingly in the same way that I’m an Anglophile–certainly no one’s going to call me a pervert for liking a British accent.
    We all have different traits that we are attracted to. However, this becomes an issue when this attraction to a TRAIT sometimes found in one group of people becomes projected on seemingly every other member of this group.
    I think that my husband loves me for most of the same reasons you love your wife–except for the cooking, of course. However, if at any point I had even gotten the slightest whiff that my ethnicity had caused him to ASSUME all these things about me without getting to know me first (creativity, intelligence, etc) then I would have been pretty offended.
    Why? Because instead of him loving me for who I am as a person, he’d be loving an IDEA of Asian women which would then embodied in one specific Asian woman (eg, Me.) In this case, one essentially sees their partner as a living a doll which, having been prescribed certain traits from the get-go, cannot fully attain the status of an individual.
    Phew, long post. By the way, Itazura, I’m not trying to imply anything about your marriage, relationship, etc.. Seriously. I was only using your comments as a springboard, not as a means of assuming anything about your marriage.

  39. Jane Minty
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    The best date a Japanese couple could have it to go home and cook dinner for each other.
    My fella is Japanese, and he frequently prepares elaborate, delicious meals (yes, I realize I am very lucky).

  40. EG
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 11:27 am | Permalink

    OK, Siamese gets my vote as most entertaining troll of the month. I picture as the Soup Guy in that Seinfeld episode, shouting “No marriage for you!”
    “Your father left your mother for his secretary after 15 years of marriage? No marriage for you!”
    “You expect to retain autonomy after marrying? No marriage for you!”
    Of course, the difference is that in that Seinfeld episode, the soup was actually…good. I find it hard to imagine my American feminist sistren with divorced parents lining up around the block in the hopes of becoming engaged to this silly man.

  41. SpaceCakeFeminist
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    paranoia paranoia, the stereotypes are coming to get us!
    Oh wait, I’m not paranoid, the stereotypes are here!
    Gah.

  42. Itazura
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    Thanks Feliza
    My first comment on this string was meant to be a joke, or kind of like kidding on the sly. My wife is rather modest though (in the quiet intelligent sense), but I discovered that aspect of her character before I fell in love with her.
    I see a lot of my coworkers treat their “native” Asian wifes/GFs like living dolls, and yeah your right, it’s not a good arrangement because eventually they both end up disappointing each other.
    My wife and I are equal partners, and we both give and get mutual happiness (I wish I could get her to comment here) from each other by just being who we really are.
    Yeah cooking together (any kind of food) in the kitchen is a very romantic date, and it’s cheap to.

  43. Michael u.a.n.
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    Itazura, no, here in New Zealand we don’t have a large number of mail order brides, perhaps you should do a little research before making weird claims like that.
    You seem to be blindly ignorant as to why people might find what you’re saying a little creepy so I’ll try and clue you in a little. You’ve been dealing in stereotypes (“positive” and negative), which most people find upsetting. To add on top of that you’ve clearly admitted that these stereotypes were one of the main factors in how you chose your wife, people find that kind of planned out searching to be creepy. Finally you’ve consistently sprinkled your posts with sexual information that no one would disclose in public, leading many of us to believe that you are probably quite uncomfortable speaking to women.

  44. Michael u.a.n.
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 11:24 pm | Permalink

    Itazura, no, here in New Zealand we don’t have a large number of mail order brides, perhaps you should do a little research before making weird claims like that.
    You seem to be blindly ignorant as to why people might find what you’re saying a little creepy so I’ll try and clue you in a little. You’ve been dealing in stereotypes (“positive” and negative), which most people find upsetting. To add on top of that you’ve clearly admitted that these stereotypes were one of the main factors in how you chose your wife, people find that kind of planned out searching to be creepy. Finally you’ve consistently sprinkled your posts with sexual information that no one would disclose in public, leading many of us to believe that you are probably quite uncomfortable speaking to women.

  45. anorak
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    Yo Michael! Kiwi high five!
    Also, WORD.

  46. Itazura
    Posted June 14, 2007 at 11:58 pm | Permalink

    Michael
    You’re a little abrasive there buddy.
    Do you actually want to me meet?
    Anytime Pal.

  47. anorak
    Posted June 15, 2007 at 12:23 am | Permalink

    Ah yes, threats of physical violence.
    Against someone on the other side of the world.
    Good one.
    Also, interesting that they are directed to the only guy who’s called you out for your stereotyping. You didn’t feel the need to physically threaten me or Peachtree or any of the female commenters here when we disagreed with you.

  48. Itazura
    Posted June 15, 2007 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    I was JOKING!!!!

  49. anorak
    Posted June 15, 2007 at 12:37 am | Permalink

    Really?
    Sorry, then.

  50. Itazura
    Posted June 15, 2007 at 12:45 am | Permalink

    I thought Michael was joking to, considering I wrote in the comment above his that my first comment on this string was meant to be a joke (or kidding on sly).
    Also I thought I admitted that knew nothing NZ and only little about Australia, and that the mail order brides in NZ and Australia comment was from thing I read years ago.
    Actually now that I think about I did get into a lot fights in Sydney and in Brisbane, but it was all in good fun.

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