I thought we learned our lesson with R. Kelly?

(Warning: This video is very explicit and may be upsetting)
Obviously, we haven’t.
Excuse me while I got delete all Akon from my playlist.

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190 Comments

  1. EG
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

    I think there is a large proportion of male and female population what would not want requirements for explicit verbal consent for every action.
    Well, call me a prude, but I dn’t really see how asking every so often “Is this OK with you?” would make life so very difficult. Anyway, not every action would wind up in court–if the woman in question didn’t mind, she wouldn’t have to press charges. The assumption behind the idea that she consented in this case is that she is now lying. Right now, the default assumption seems to be that in the absence of conclusive evidence, we are to assume that the girl consents. Why? Presuming consent is a dangerous, dangerous thing–is there any other situation in which we assume somebody’s default position is consent? The default assumption should be that in the absence of conclusive evidence to the contrary, the girl is not consenting. The burden should be on the initiating person to make sure his/her partner consents, not on the partner to make sure she is articulating her objection to the satisfaction of random onlookers.

  2. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 7:47 pm | Permalink

    Not to mention, “affirmative consent” really isn’t the unsexy horror some men and women imagine it to be. “Do you like this?” or even an articulate “Do you wanna have sex with me?” can be damn sexy when said with the right attitude and voice. The point of a standard like that is to provide protection for people, and it really doesn’t hurt anyone.
    “I refuse to convict anybody on that because I do think there is a question as to her level of participation which raises a question as to his knowledge as to what she wanted or didn’t want.”
    In the girl’s /own comments/ she says that he started doing things she didn’t expect, she indicates that she was confused and she mentions her head hitting the floor as though it wasn’t something she was digging. Now, if you’re saying the girl might be lying, come out and say it. But that’s not going to win you any debates here. I think all of us are looking at the evidence very carefully, and saying that we think it’s definitely not in Akon’s favor.

  3. EG
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

    I refuse to convict anybody on that
    Nobody’s convicting anybody. Convicting somebody requires a court of justice. We are expressing our opinions of his behavior, an expression which, I might add, has no consequences whatsoever for Akon. So…why shouldn’t we?

  4. UCLAbodyimage
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    A further thought.
    As we are discussing this issue, it does bring up an important point. In addition to reigning in hyper-aggressiveness on the part of males, this situation really shows the importance of training women to be clear and authoritative in there desires. In this case, if she did not wish to partake in the activities, feeling strong and confident enough to clearly and strongly voice her objection. This eliminates the need to have “he thought / she thought” discussions.

  5. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 7:58 pm | Permalink

    I wanna see you, when someone unexpectedly starts smacking your head against the ground and then twirling you around in the air, be very articulate, UCLA.
    That aside, I think women can have trouble voicing their feelings in other situations. Yes, I think building women’s confidence so they express themselves fully is awesome.
    I also think training women and especially men to hold “affirmative consent” as their ideal would be crucial and the most important thing, because no matter what people are going to express themselves in unique ways.
    Now since you seem interested in female communication, we could even start talking about a whole other set of feminist issues. Like has anybody else noticed that a substantial number of younger guys tend to freak out when women flirt suggestively or talk about sex openly?

  6. EG
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

    , this situation really shows the importance of training women to be clear and authoritative in there desires.
    I’m not really sure how one could be clear and authoritative while one’s head is being banged against the floor, especially considering the effects of shock, as I experienced when some guy just put his arms around me. While I agree that we need to encourage all girls and women to be assertive and to make their wishes known, I don’t think victims of rape, sexual assault, or unwanted touching should be held to some gold standard of assertiveness in order to have their experiences validated. That puts the burden on the victim, rather than on the perpetrator.

  7. Posted April 29, 2007 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    Ninapendamaishi -
    What is it we are supposed to be learning? That you are right and we are wrong and that the case is cut and dry black and white?
    Why would we even be discussing this if it were that easy?
    If we (women/feminists) go stampedeing at every male who does something disgusting or questionable without finding out the facts first – and I don’t mean a snippet of video and a sentence from the girl – then we lose power. It’s like shouting ALL the time – eventually peoople stop listening.
    I have been the victim of molestation and sexual harassment (a cousin and a cousin and an uncle and a boss) so, do I get the special stars to be allowed to discuss this topic and have it weighed fairly? I’m also a fat woman, which is virtually unforgivable in this culture AND I have TWO DAUGHTERS (21 and 13)who I wake up with my battle cry for every day – fighting the girlsgonewild-MTV-greaseduplegs-fergalicious-dryhumping-myhumps-lapdancingonthefirstdate world out there.
    SO DO NOT ACCUSE ME OF NOT LEARNING – I had my learning forced upon me.
    I’ll tell ya – I guess we wouldn’t need due process if you were running the legislative branch.
    I’m sorry UCLA – I didn’t mean to be snarky – but rather than answering some of my questions of my first post I felt she attacked me and I really don’t need to be schooled by her. I was posing the questions to try and figure out where the error of the whole situation occured (beyond the general mentality, which is an all-encompassing problem) to have prevented this girl from going through this – BEYOND the fact that he did what he did.
    If we only focus on what he did it’s the same thing as simply putting money into prisions instead of into youth programs and parenting classes.
    It only touches on the end result and the last step of the problem.
    I ask myself what attracted her to his music – why did she attend the concert – who was supposed to be watching her – did she lie – if she did then why – did she ever say no or stop – has he had a pattern of this behavior at clubs and if so – why weren’t people warned – how did she get in.
    Yes, I am wanting to see him atone for what he did. I would like to know if he’s done this before. I can’t help but wonder if he hasn’t done this or worse in the past and hope that it stops him from doing it in the future.
    Ninapendamaishi – I’m sorry if you’ve been through a bad experience – I wake up every day wishing the world were a better place for women – and doing what I can to make it so. I would have much rather had you point out your feelings than pick apart my questions and imply that I haven’t learned anything – you are again assuming you know for a fact something you don’t – what I have and haven’t learned. I’m not your enemy.

  8. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

    the “learning” post was meant to be addressed to UCLA, not you, Heather.
    My beef with your position is different. But I think I have addressed it as well, separately.

  9. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    “I ask myself what attracted her to his music – why did she attend the concert”
    How does that have anything to do with anything? I guess I can only speak for myself, but I really don’t think there is anything ethically wrong with a 14 yr-old listening to mainstream music, or getting into clubs to see famous performers, at least not ethically wrong in the sense that it would have any bearings on his actions.

  10. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

    “If we (women/feminists) go stampedeing at every male who does something disgusting or questionable without finding out the facts first – and I don’t mean a snippet of video and a sentence from the girl – then we lose power. ”
    If you are afraid of losing power due to a discussion like this, maybe it speaks to how little power feminists have to begin with? Because these uncertainties, real or imagined, are exploited to the fullest extent in every sexual harassment and sexual assault case, usually to the advantage of the male perpetrator. Feminists have not advanced much on the issue of sexual violence in like 15 years, because most of the public who is aware of it deny that the 1 in 4 statistic is true. How much do you think feminists have to give up to be heard, Heather? Do you really think giving up anytime there’s any uncertainty helps us get heard? There is NEVER 100% certainty in the eyes of everyone weighing in on a case. What each person does, is they look at the facts carefully, and they try and make reasoned arguments as to what they think the situation is. This is what the U.S. Courts and Jury System do, and that is what the general public does. Unsurprisingly, cultural assumptions (i.e. the status quo) can have a huge influence on the way most people spin the uncertainties in a situation. We’re entitled to our interpretation of what happened, and to argue it out with others.
    Also Heather, you seem to be ignoring this point EG and I brought up about “affirmative consent”. This may not be the standard by which men are always held now. But I think if it was, the world would be a better place (not to mention, I think placing higher responsibility on men can also be interpreted in a positive way -hey, contrary to cultural assumption they aren’t just stupid animals who are incapable of sensing emotion, having empathy, and handling their sexuality in responsible ways!)

  11. Posted April 29, 2007 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    I am not saying it has a bearing on the question of the criminality of what he did or didn’t do – I am saying that I PERSONALLY would like to know all of the factors that led up to this – as a parent, as a woman and as a member of a society in general.
    You are looking at my questions about other factors as excuses for his behavior – I’m trying to tell you to stop doing that because you are missing my point.
    Also – again – you picked out one thing you decided I needed to defend.
    I did learn something – you do not understand me and you don’t want to and you don’t care to try. You are simply going to attempt to pick apart my questions.
    No there is nothing ethically wrong with her listening to mainstream music – I suppose – as long as his music isn’t degrading to women. And if she is and his music is – then why would she do that? AGAIN – I am NOT SAYING that because she listened to his music she deserved what happened – I am speaking to bigger general questions to answer the question as to WHY.
    I want to know all angles we can work to prevent this sort of thing. If you want to stand and scream at men and pick apart your fellow feminists – good luck with that – but I want to be proactive about it and get to the roots and the bud and work it from both ends.

  12. donna darko
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 8:31 pm | Permalink

    EG, Law Fairy has three marriage proposals on Feministing so far all from women (prairielily, me and you)!
    Heather and Nina, you seem to be arguing a very fine line and basically agree with each other. Cheers.

  13. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 8:33 pm | Permalink

    “this sort of thing.”
    I think what you have problems with here is perhaps a bit different than what I have problems with, based on some of your previous comments. Grinding is typical in clubs, horizontal grinding sometimes happens too. I don’t have a problem with any of that, and I don’t think it’s inherently sexist.
    I have problems with men taking liberties to touch women or control women’s bodies, without being given explicit consent. (I.e. “hey, wanna dance?” “yeah”, or perhaps me smiling at them and bumping back into them in rhythm) For me the situation is no more complicated than that, so I really don’t need to know about the rest of this girl’s history in order to express my opinions about this event.

  14. mooserider
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 8:33 pm | Permalink

    Coming in a bit late…
    You know, I would have a problem with this even if a) she was 18 or older, and this had been verified, and b) she clearly consented to/enjoyed this kind of dancing. Not that those things aren’t relevant, and don’t change the name of the game here – but I’m just so sick of violence (i.e. a guy throwing a woman around, banging her head, leaving her lying on the floor at the end of it) being portrayed as sexy. because it’s not.

  15. UCLAbodyimage
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

    “Nobody’s convicting anybody. Convicting somebody requires a court of justice. We are expressing our opinions of his behavior”
    The main point of contention at this point is not whether Akon’s actions are objectionable. I *think* we all agree on that. The main point of contention is whether Akon’s actions constituted assault.
    If I am correct, EG/Nina’s view is that without affirmative consent, it is assault. We should err on the side of protecting the victim. If I am correct, UCLA/Heathers view is that it is not assault because it appears that she was a willing participant and it is not clear to observers when, if ever, she stopped being a willing participant. Further, she never voiced clear objection to the activities. We should err on the side of presuming innocence. I’m not sure what would shift those opinions at this point.
    EG: “Well, call me a prude, but I don’t really see how asking every so often “Is this OK with you?” would make life so very difficult.”
    Okay! I won’t call you a prude :-) . From my days in the clubs, this my impression of how things happen.
    1. Girl dances with her friends
    2. Guy comes up and starts dancing with girl (no verbal communication)
    3. Guy starts grinding with girl (no verbal communication)
    4. Dancing becomes increasingly sexual until the girl places a limit, usually my pushing a hand away, creating separation, etc.
    I think that affirmative consent is a rarity, and most people like it that way. Things get quite sexual without it. At concerts and some clubs, between strangers I’ve definitely seen hands going down pants (by men and women), lots of dorsal-ventral simulated coupling (i.e., doggy-style), and women straddling guys (usually vertically), often without clear verbal assent.
    Heather: “I’m sorry UCLA – I didn’t mean to be snarky”
    My recent comment on the snarkiness was direct at some of Nina’s posts. I’m not sure why s/he thinks it’s an effective debate strategy, but Nina appears bent on making small prodding comments that distract from the debate (e.g., “You just aren’t interested in learning, are you?” or “It would also make it easier to defend women’s rights, if you care about such things…)”. It’s not clear why she thinks that is an effective way to garner respect for her opinions.
    “NINA: I wanna see you, when someone unexpectedly starts smacking your head against the ground and then twirling you around in the air, be very articulate, UCLA; EG: I’m not really sure how one could be clear and authoritative while one’s head is being banged against the floor, especially considering the effects of shock”
    As I noted in my very first post, one plausible explanation for why she didn’t clearly express objections to the situation was that she was overwhelmed by the situation. Certainly we know that tonic immobility is a common response to fear, and has been used as an explanation for why some rape victims to not voice protests. As I stated before, it’s plausible, but doesn’t change the fact that the there was no clear signal to Akon that his actions were unwanted.

  16. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

    yeah mooserider,
    I guess I mostly agree with you. I don’t have a problem with horizontal dancing per se, but as far as the bits about the head being banged on the ground and being thrown around like that, I think the “maybe she wanted it!” is unlikely at best, and otherwise just absurd

  17. EG
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

    there was no clear signal to Akon that his actions were unwanted.
    But again, why on earth would he assume that the default would be that somebody would want to have her head banged against the floor?
    I also have to say, I don’t care what his perspective was. If I didn’t think I was drunk, and got into a car, and hit somebody, I’d still be responsible.

  18. Posted April 29, 2007 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

    Nina – I don’t think we disagree as to the core of the issue here, I think we started off badly because I felt you attacked my first comment when all I was doing was posing questions to get a larger sense of how something like this evolves (or DEvolves!) from the music, culture, his attidues, her attitudes, kids in adult atmosphere being spoon fed sexuality too soon – question. I am all over this all the time – but I STILL feel as though you KNOW FOR A FACT all that happened and I’m saying we CAN’T!
    Also the “affirmative consent” thing – I will have to get back to you on that but my gut reaction is that a world where we all have to have permission to touch another person probably isn’t going to work very well and it could actually end up being pretty cold and could actually end up creating a whole new prison full of “offenders.” I’ll have to read up on the subject and get back to you on it.
    “But I think if it was, the world would be a better place (not to mention, I think placing higher responsibility on men can also be interpreted in a positive way -hey, contrary to cultural assumption they aren’t just stupid animals who are incapable of sensing emotion, having empathy, and handling their sexuality in responsible ways!)”
    Why should men have to be MORE responsible than women? To me, that only confirms we are a “weaker sex.”
    Also – I don’t view men the way you mentioned but I’m sure some do. I have two husbands and they are both very different, but neither of them ever would have hurt or forced themselves on a woman. Are they rotten boys sometimes? YES – but not like that.
    As for assault laws and such – I think that improving assault laws would help and I also think that it would help if when somebody commits a sex crime it doesn’t get pleaded down to a NON-sex crime would help too.
    So many of those people are repeat offenders it makes me ill.
    So many girls (and boys) are raped and even killed by people who have previously offended. It is a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE tragedy and such loss and leaves a giant hole in the world.
    If you have put me in the “blame the victim” catagory you are wrong. Far from the truth. I simply refuse to decide that I KNOW that guy’s INTENT based on that clip and her one sentence.
    Either way he’s obviously a pig and callous and well, nasty I guess – so folks should stop buying his music.
    Did you all see the news article about the Texas teen boys who made a rap song? I did a blog entry linking to the story here:
    http://www.charlescountycafe.com/?p=763#respond
    What can we do to stop this bitches/hos mentality? How can we find more positive role models for our kids?

  19. UCLAbodyimage
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 8:45 pm | Permalink

    NINA WROTE “Now since you seem interested in female communication, we could even start talking about a whole other set of feminist issues. Like has anybody else noticed that a substantial number of younger guys tend to freak out when women flirt suggestively or talk about sex openly?”
    That definitely is a topic of interest to me! However, I’m currently trying to finish up a manuscript that I’d like to submit to a journal tomorrow. It’s on the sexualization of women’s breasts, and women’s attitudes towards their breast size, and men’s attitudes towards their partner’s breasts. Bottom line: The majority of women are dissatisfied with their breasts, but the the majority of their partner’s are satisfied with their partner’s breasts! This fits a larger pattern of results where people are more critical of their own bodies than they need to be.
    But, I digress.

  20. mooserider
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 8:46 pm | Permalink

    right – i don’t have a problem with grinding or highly sexualized dancing – it’s just when all the power/agency is clearly in the hands of one ‘partner’, and there’s real violent overtones that i feel uncomfortable.

  21. stellaelizabeth
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

    heather, you mentioned you have two husbands(!), if this is not a mistype, and you wouldn’t mind: what do you mean?

  22. EG
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 8:54 pm | Permalink

    But come one, would it really drain away all of life’s joy so very completely if it went like this:
    1. Girl dances with her friends
    2. Guy comes up and starts dancing with girl (no verbal communication)
    3. Guy starts grinding with girl. Guy says “Hey, baby, this good with you?
    4) Girl says “Hell, yeah, baby!”
    5) Dancing becomes increasingly sexual until the girl places a limit, usually my pushing a hand away, creating separation, etc.

  23. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

    “If I am correct, UCLA/Heathers view is that it is not assault because it appears that she was a willing participant and it is not clear to observers when, if ever, she stopped being a willing participant.”
    I feel comfortable with that summary.
    “I think that affirmative consent is a rarity, and most people like it that way. Things get quite sexual without it.”
    If things get quite sexual that way without it because both people want them to, then things could get quite sexual with it too. Follow my logic?
    Also I agree with your list of things that you’ve seen happen in clubs. On the other hand, have you ever seen screaming which sounded like that on the video that indicated the person was really liking the dancing?
    I am unclear, at this point, about whether or not you concede that the girl didn’t want her head smacked on the floor, UCLA. However, yes, EG and I are concerned about protecting victims. Incidentally, if the actions were mutual and enjoyed, there would not afterwards be a case to debate. Unless, of course, you think girls are frequently partaking in sexual activities and then later lying about it and trying to convict the man of something. Which is /so/ not the case, and /so/ symptomatic of this general distrust/hate of women that causes us to call our culture “misogynistic”. You also seem like you are concerned about the intentions of the man, irregardless of whether or not an assault actually took place. You don’t think a man should be held responsible for an assault unless he attended to assault, perhaps? Besides the fact I blatantly disagree with that principle and the fact that it would be virtually impossible to include such factors in our justice system, with our situation of “affirmative consent,” everyone wins! You wouldn’t have men “accidentally” assaulting people, and it would be even more difficult for a women who had expressed a desire to do something crystal-clearly to later lie about it. The only people I can see losing under such a system, are people who really, honestly, /don’t/ want to know about their partner’s feelings. Oh, and people who so uncomfortable with their own sexuality they find communicating painful, but I’d argue they’re losing some either way.

  24. Posted April 29, 2007 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

    Stellaelizabeth -
    It’s not a mistype. Legally married to Robert for almost 15 years – have been together with him since I was 19 (he was 20). Will I call my husband, but I guess life partner is fair too since we aren’t legally married (5 years).
    Robert is the more “traditional” sort of fella – watches football, good with computers, a little emotionally withdrawn at times but very loving and sometimes very stubborn.
    Will is more like me – emotional, artsy. Between us we have four children ages 18,17 (Wills) and 21, 13 (mine and Robert’s).
    We’re a pretty traditional family – cook dinner, help kids with homework, do community work, all the “normal” stuff families do.

  25. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 9:02 pm | Permalink

    “Why should men have to be MORE responsible than women? To me, that only confirms we are a “weaker sex.”"
    They don’t at all. Rather, both parties have equal responsibility. A woman should not have sex/sexually touch a male partner unless she is absolutely sure he is happy about doing it. And vice versa. No double standard here.

  26. Posted April 29, 2007 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

    Nina – thanks for clearing that up.
    I am glad I had a chance to read everybody’s opinions on this. It’s something to ruminate on.
    I will read up on the affirmative consent thing – and I’ll try to be open minded about it – maybe I’ll post a thread on my political blog to see what the guys and girls there think of it, just to get some idea.
    I think it takes a lot of guts for folks to come out and really say what’s in your guts, even if you’re pretty sure somebody is going to disagree with you – so thanks everybody for being brave and sharing.
    There is no shyness of advocating for women here – so that’s a good thing!
    I gotta go finish some art or I won’t make any money! :)

  27. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

    “But come one, would it really drain away all of life’s joy so very completely if it went like this:
    1. Girl dances with her friends
    2. Guy comes up and starts dancing with girl (no verbal communication)
    3. Guy starts grinding with girl. Guy says “Hey, baby, this good with you?
    4) Girl says “Hell, yeah, baby!”
    5) Dancing becomes increasingly sexual until the girl places a limit, usually my pushing a hand away, creating separation, etc.”
    Well said, EG.

  28. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 9:13 pm | Permalink

    “I’m currently trying to finish up a manuscript that I’d like to submit to a journal tomorrow. It’s on the sexualization of women’s breasts, and women’s attitudes towards their breast size, and men’s attitudes towards their partner’s breasts. Bottom line: The majority of women are dissatisfied with their breasts, but the the majority of their partner’s are satisfied with their partner’s breasts! This fits a larger pattern of results where people are more critical of their own bodies than they need to be.”
    Sounds like an interesting topic. I’m sure you’ll talk about media images. Are you also including an investigation of the affects of “group behavior” in the sense that when guys are together they often tell jokes or make other comments that involve putting down certain female body types? To me that would be worthy of including in your analysis as well…
    Good luck though.

  29. Posted April 29, 2007 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

    Like Nina, I also find the manuscript subject interesting – I’d love to know more!
    Evidently there was some sort of ban on breastfeeding images on Myspace for a while – a young woman who is a midwife was quite upset (and I was too) about the kind of garbage on Myspace that objectifies and dehumanizes women, yet breastfeeding images were banned. GAH!!!
    There was a show/docu I saw on HBO I think maybe eight years ago, I think it was simply titled BREASTS – and it was a similar topic and all of the women were interviewed topless – old, young, fat, skinny – it was very interesting.
    This society tries to make us dissatisfied with EVERYTHING! That’s what hte marketing goal is – what we have isn’t good enough, we want to spend on this other thing and breasts are no differnt. Seems so inpersonal to me!
    I would love to know more about your work with this!

  30. UCLAbodyimage
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 9:36 pm | Permalink

    EG, I certainly would have no problem with your suggested “Hell, yeah, baby” approach! But I think alot of men and women at the club get off on the whole increasingly naughty simulated sex dancing with strangers thing. I think its a norm for them for consent to communicated via body movements, not verbally.
    “I am unclear, at this point, about whether or not you concede that the girl didn’t want her head smacked on the floor, UCLA.”
    Oh, I’m sure she didn’t want her head smacked on the floor. But that’s not indicative of lack of consent. For example, one of my friends was dancy sexy with a guy once, and during a dip she banged her head hard on the table. Ouch! But she had (nonverbally) consented to a variety of sexy dance moves and the fact that one went awry isn’t evidence of assault. Negligence, maybe.
    ” On the other hand, have you ever seen screaming which sounded like that on the video that indicated the person was really liking the dancing?”
    No, but I have seen lots of people on stage in front of 100s of people screaming with excitement. In my initial viewing of the tape before I knew her age it didn’t occur to me she was being assaulted, only that she was excited.
    “You also seem like you are concerned about the intentions of the man, irregardless of whether or not an assault actually took place. ”
    I completely agree with you that affirmative consent removes all ambiguity, and eliminates the kind of debates we are having now. But lacking that, I think it is important to inquire whether a reasonable person would interpret her actions as signalling continued interest in increasingly sexual activities. The test isn’t solely whether the man
    I realize your concern – looking over all the horrid comments on youtube, it might be too dangerous to leave that kind of decision up to the mob. But that’s where I err on giving the benefit of the doubt, rather than assuming guilt.
    Sorry, I’m afraid I need to check out of the debate now because of time constraints (though I will of course will read your responses if you have them, just won’t be able to respond).

  31. UCLAbodyimage
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 9:49 pm | Permalink

    Re: Breast Manuscript
    Hey Heather / Nina. I’m happy to make the paper available to you. We’re submitting it to a human sexuality journal. I could email it, or eventually it will be available on my website:
    http://dfred.bol.ucla.edu/publications.html
    Yes, I’ve seen the breasts HBO video – very interesting interviews!
    The Barbie Mystique:
    Satisfaction with Breast Size and Shape Across the Lifespan
    Nina, your point about men derogating women’s bodies is a good point that I didn’t address explicitly. Currently this is what we say regarding the issues you brought up:
    “Feminists and others have frequently claimed that the media and many men treat women as if they exist simply to provide sexual gratification for men (Bartky, 1990; Bordo, 1993; Frederickson & Roberts, 1997). Fredrickson and Roberts (1997) formalized this idea in Objectification Theory, which proposes that in Western culture women’s bodies are frequently scrutinized and evaluated by men. One consequence of these evaluations is that women internalize an observer’s perspective on their bodies and assess their own value as a function of how they believe their bodies are viewed by others.
    Women’s breasts, perhaps more than any other aspect of women’s bodies, are widely presented for evaluation in television, movies, and popular magazines (e.g., Seifert, 2005). The media are often criticized for contributing to women’s dissatisfaction with their breasts, and there is some empirical evidence that women who are more regular consumers of media presenting idealized female bodies are more concerned about their own breasts (e.g., Harrison, 2003). However, even more important than media to women’s feelings about their breasts, may be a concern that their romantic partner would prefer a woman with larger or more shapely breasts.

  32. Charity
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    Yeah, like Nina I am *interested* in the topic of that manuscript, but in a cynical way, because
    “It’s on the sexualization of women’s breasts, and women’s attitudes towards their breast size, and men’s attitudes towards their partner’s breasts. Bottom line: The majority of women are dissatisfied with their breasts, but the the majority of their partner’s are satisfied with their partner’s breasts! This fits a larger pattern of results where people are more critical of their own bodies than they need to be.”
    sounds a lot like *women are so strangely sensitive and weird about their body image! but it’s not because of their PARTNERS, because see, their partners are fine with their bodies*!
    Like Nina, I hope that broader systemic and contextual variables that influence women’s body image are also taken into account in the study, and that measurement biases are as well–such as the fact that being self-deprecating is often seen as socially desirable behavior for women, whereas men being critical of their partners might be seen by the men as socially undesirable behavior. Thus, men might be less likely to report perceiving flaws in their partner in a research situation, for fear of looking like jerks.

  33. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

    I actually just realized that this whole discussion reminds me of something that happened to me about a year ago. Disclaimer is that I was a smidgeon younger and hadn’t yet had as much college experience, and I think if I could do it over I’d handle things better. Anyway, hrm, here goes:
    Incidentally, I happened to meet a sort of successful music artist at a party after his performance. I was really attracted to him in person. I was also a little boozy. After some talking we started making out and groping for like an hour. If we’d had sex I probably wouldn’t have called it rape, because I definitely sort of wanted to. On the other hand, I was a little boozy and disoriented and sort of embarassed about the situation, and I wasn’t giving what you would call “affirmative consent.” So he stopped. And he backed off. At first I was a little hurt and confused, and a little upset at myself for not being better able to make clear decisions with confidence in strange situations. Ultimately though, I respected him for it. He hadn’t slept in over 30 hours and he’d been drinking too and he was a little disappointed but I thought he was basically pretty responsible for a 20 yr-old rock star. And he didn’t just walk off afterwards either.
    Oh and I now I have a crush on him. That’s another matter entirely though.

  34. roymacIII
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    Also the “affirmative consent” thing – I will have to get back to you on that but my gut reaction is that a world where we all have to have permission to touch another person probably isn’t going to work very well and it could actually end up being pretty cold and could actually end up creating a whole new prison full of “offenders.”
    I have to say that, as a guy, I always seek enthusiastic consent from my partners, and it’s never made things “cold.” I’m not sure why you think it would create a prison full of offenders, either, really. Enthusiastic consent can take many forms- it can be given without prompting, as when she says “Oh, yeah, I like that” sometimes it’s requested, as when you ask “Do you like it when I do this” or “how does this feel” or “do you want me to”… The problem, I think, is that we’re taught to be ashamed of sex. It took me a long time to get over my hang-ups about being vocal about what I wanted to do and what I wanted done, but, if anything, it’s improved things. Enthusiastic consent has helped improve things, because, really, it’s hot when your partner is really into what the two of you are doing, and when you feel comfortable enough to express vocally what you’re thinking and feeling… it’s hot.
    Why should men have to be MORE responsible than women? To me, that only confirms we are a “weaker sex.”
    As things currently stand, I think that man are held to a lower standard than women- they’re held less responsible. When a woman does get raped, you always hear people saying “Well, she shouldn’t have been X, Y, and Z.” Men are given a pass for all kinds of irresponsible, assholish behaviors, and I think it’s time for us men to step up and start taking some responsibility for sexual behaviors.
    Every time rape is talked about, there are men who worry about false accusations. There are easy ways to avoid false accusations, but men don’t want to talk about it or deal with it- they’d rather that the sole responsibility for rape be left with women.
    The idea of seeking positive, enthusiastic consent before engaging in sex, and not having sex with someone that you’re not absolutely sure is capable of giving informed, enthusiastic consent isn’t holding men to a higher standard, it’s holding them to a minimally decent standard. That’s the minimum that people should be going for when they’re having sex. If we wanted to get beyond that, I think that people should have conversations about their feelings on abortion and what would happen if, god forbid, an unwanted pregnancy came up. I don’t expect that everyone is going to do that, particularly not if you’re talking about a random hook-up or someone you just met at a party- getting enthusiastic consent, though? That should be the case for everyone.
    The drawback, of course, is that there will be times when someone doesn’t have sex. The benefit is that rape goes down, “false” accusations go down, and people tend to have better, more fulfilling sex. I think that’s a worth it.

  35. UCLAbodyimage
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    RE: CHARITY “sounds a lot like *women are so strangely sensitive and weird about their body image! but it’s not because of their PARTNERS, because see, their partners are fine with their bodies*!”
    Let me see if I can clear up your concerns and make you feel a little less cynical!
    First, we have a parallel paper on attitudes towards penis size that examines literally the exact same set of questions.
    http://content.apa.org/journals/men/7/3/129
    Second, BOTH men and women overestimate the importance of traits to the opposite sex. In particular, the common finidngs are in the body image literature:
    1. Men and women rate their partner as being more attractive than their partner rates themselves
    2. Men overestimate the degree of muscularity preferred by women, and the importance they attach to muscularity.
    3. Women overestimate the degree of thinness preferred by men, and the importance they attached to thinness.
    4. Nearly have of men are not satisfied with their penis size, while the vast majority of women are satisfied with their partner’s penis size.
    5. In two studies we get the same effect for women overestimating the importance of breast size to men.
    This all points to a positive message: We are more self-critical of our bodies than we need be. Which I think is a positive message.

  36. Charity
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    As always, roymac sums it up so beautifully. Your mention of women being held more accountable in matters of sexual conduct reminds me of something Twisty called attention to recently, which I’m sad to say I never even noticed. The “passive voice” problem – constant mention of women “being raped”, language which kind of softens or avoids reference to mens’ responsibility when it comes to rape, in a much more subtle and insidious way than implying all we need are better assertiveness programs for women. I know the phrase “…are raped” or “…was raped” can be used in a sort of shorthand way, but even if the intent is benign (and it’s hard to believe it always is), it has a way of erasing the perpetrator from the equation, especially when discussing rape as a prevalent cultural phenomenon – when it really would make more sense, factually, to speak of “men raping women.” It was a very thought-provoking comment, but then, most of Twisty’s are.

  37. donna darko
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    I have to side with EG and Nina on this upon further thought. Roymac is also right about affirmative consent. The Antioch rules are necessary because we live in a misogynist society in which women are afraid to say no. There are many situations in which I was afraid to say no not just in sexual situations but any situation with a male. Feminism has made women more assertive but it has a long way to go. It’s better to be safe than sorry. The girl in the video is probably very upset right now and sometimes it’s hard to stop something even if you’re an adult, e.g. the Shilpa Shetty situation, the Halle Berry-actor situation, etc. It’s hours later they regret what happened because while it happened they tried to be nice or at least not appear anti-social.

  38. Charity
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    Thanks for the clarification, UCLA.

  39. EG
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    He hadn’t slept in over 30 hours and he’d been drinking too and he was a little disappointed but I thought he was basically pretty responsible for a 20 yr-old rock star. And he didn’t just walk off afterwards either.
    Oh and I now I have a crush on him. That’s another matter entirely though.

    I kind of have a crush on him too, now! Just because a guy you can trust when he’s twenty, sleep-derived, drunk, and a rock musician to err on the side of respecting women’s boundaries is my kind of guy.
    Except that I’m way too old for him.

  40. donna darko
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    David Frederick, I’m interested in two of your papers
    Frederick, D.A. (2004). Women’s preferences for different male body types. Society Scientific Study Sexuality Western Regional Conference, San Diego, CA.
    Supervised Undergraduate Senior Research Projects
    8. Leila Sadeghi-Azar. What do women find physically attractive? Confounds and convergent validity in popular measures of male body types.

    Women seem about evenly split between their desires for manly men and sensitive, artistic types (e.g. Jake Gyllenhall, John Cusack, etc. etc. etc). I used to like the sensitive, artistic type because every guy in 80s and 90s chick flicks were this type and I must have absorbed this preference by osmosis. Or every guy worshipped in Sassy magazine was the sensitive, artistic type. Several years ago, women online told me I was really missing out by avoiding the manly man so I tried that and liked it. I think it’s mostly social construction and less about hardwiring. Did you and Ms. Sadeghi-Azar find it about evenly split?

  41. donna darko
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    Every guy worshipped in Bust magazine was the sensitive, artistic type too.
    Why do men assume women prefer manly men? I think more women prefer the less manly men – the sensitive, artistic type.

  42. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    why does it need to be a binary? I think that binary in a way just reflects the false binary of masculine/feminine, and perhaps does not encompass evryone’s tastes well enough to do great studies.
    I tend to like tall thin-ish guys who are well-toned/muscular, sensitive, arty and tough. But that doesn’t mean everyone I’m attracted to falls in that category (if you can even tell me for sure which category that falls into).

  43. donna darko
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    True that. I would like to know the results of his two papers
    Women’s preferences for different male body types
    What do women find physically attractive? Confounds and convergent validity in popular measures of male body types

  44. Posted April 29, 2007 at 11:43 pm | Permalink

    RoymacIII:
    “When a woman does get raped, you always hear people saying “Well, she shouldn’t have been X, Y, and Z.”"
    —The “she was asking for it” defense is garbage. I don’t care if she’s half naked – rape is rape. I never said otherwise.
    “Every time rape is talked about, there are men who worry about false accusations.”
    — I think false accusations are actually very rare and I really can’t see a woman putting herself through the trauma of trials and questions and probing if she didn’t really go through it.
    “The idea of seeking positive, enthusiastic consent before engaging in sex, and not having sex with someone that you’re not absolutely sure is capable of giving informed, enthusiastic consent isn’t holding men to a higher standard, it’s holding them to a minimally decent standard. ”
    — Sounds fair to me. By the way, I still don’t think men should have to be held to a HIGHER standard – which wasn’t my wording (actually she said MORE responsible) it was Nina’s. I’m not sure what your point is other than that men should be held to higher standard than women or they should be held to a higher standard than they are now or they should be held to a minimum standard that has nothing to do with what standards women are held to?
    Also – I love the way some of you are such idealists thinking that we’ll just make affirmative consent a law (if that is what you are proposing) and everybody will comply and all the fate of every sex offender will be sealed and all people will act and talk the same way and follow these standards and it will be neat and tidy and just so good for everybody.
    It’s a nice idea, I just think criminalizing touching that isn’t first approved in a verbal contract is – well – sort of sterile and not very realistic. Maybe it works for you. Hell, maybe you can only function if you get enthusiastic verbal approval beforehand – but not everybody is like that – we aren’t all the same. I think it’s more productive to just be clear when you DON’T want to be touched or DON’T want to be in a situation and make it clear so nobody can say you DIDN’T make it clear. If she had once yelled “STOP – I DON’T LIKE THIS” then there would have been very little left to various intrepretations by any of us.
    Women who are drunk, druged or otherwise impared to give consent – we have laws about that already and the problem comes with enforcing them and keeping track of the offenders.
    Those girls who are underage simply can’t give consent – no matter what, and there are laws for that too.
    I think it’s easy to say, “If we just had this one rule then this thing would never happen.” But it’s much different when trying to apply it to many people, cultures and also applying criminality to it.
    Again, I have to look into the affirmative consent stuff – I don’t know a whole lot about it so I have to do some homework as to what it would require, what would be criminal or if it’s just supposed to be a cultural thing that’s encouraged or what.
    Goodnight folks!

  45. EG
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    I love the way some of you are such idealists thinking that we’ll just make affirmative consent a law (if that is what you are proposing) and everybody will comply and all the fate of every sex offender will be sealed and all people will act and talk the same way and follow these standards and it will be neat and tidy and just so good for everybody.
    That’s a pretty condescending and facile set of assumptions about what we who support affirmative consent think. I think it’s naive to suppose that legal definitions don’t have an effect on public perceptions. Look at how often, in discussion threads about rape, people start invoking terms like “evidence,” “convict,” “reasonable doubt.” Making affirmative consent a legal standard would be part of an important sea change in cultural perceptions of female sexuality.
    I really don’t understand your objection. If men and women who aren’t worried about affirmative consent mutually, happily sleep together without it, then they will be happy. And nobody will be raping anybody, and it would never come up. But why should one of those guys who thinks that’s just fine and dandy tries to inflict himself on a woman who doesn’t, why should that be protected? If those guys are willing to take that kind of chance on behalf of those women, surely they should shoulder the chance that they might be held liable themselves.

  46. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 29, 2007 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    “— Sounds fair to me. By the way, I still don’t think men should have to be held to a HIGHER standard – which wasn’t my wording (actually she said MORE responsible) it was Nina’s. I’m not sure what your point is other than that men should be held to higher standard than women or they should be held to a higher standard than they are now or they should be held to a minimum standard that has nothing to do with what standards women are held to?”
    I don’t know where you’re getting this whole idea that we think men should be responsible for doing things that we don’t also think women should be responsible for doing. Certainly neither roymac or myself ever said that. I already addressed that for you, actually.
    “It’s a nice idea, I just think criminalizing touching that isn’t first approved in a verbal contract is – well – sort of sterile and not very realistic. ”
    What it’s criminalizing is /unwanted/ touching. If both people want touching, then no one is going to complain regardless of how they communicated. If someone didn’t want touching, then what “affirmative consent” does is change the way in which you go about proving whether or not the person with the allegation is right. It places more responsibility on the aggressive party in sexual situations. Like you say, false allegations are rare. No law is perfect, but I see this as a more progressive one.
    Incidentally, the women’s group at my campus has also been waging an “affirmative consent” education campaign this year.
    I think roymac, EG, and myself all addressed the realistic use of “affirmative consent” and the ways in which it is does not at all create a “sterile” environment. Even if you’re a naturally huggy person, it really only takes a split second to make sure you’re not making people uncomfortable, and they’ll appreciate that you are considerate of their feelings.

  47. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 30, 2007 at 12:19 am | Permalink

    “— Sounds fair to me. By the way, I still don’t think men should have to be held to a HIGHER standard – which wasn’t my wording (actually she said MORE responsible) it was Nina’s. I’m not sure what your point is other than that men should be held to higher standard than women or they should be held to a higher standard than they are now or they should be held to a minimum standard that has nothing to do with what standards women are held to?”
    Oh okay. I reread this again, so let me clarify for you. We are asserting that men are currently held to a standard that is lower than a minimally decent one. Therefore, we are advocating that men be held to higher standards than they are now. Women can be held to the same standards.

  48. roymacIII
    Posted April 30, 2007 at 6:23 am | Permalink

    RoymacIII:
    —The “she was asking for it” defense is garbage. I don’t care if she’s half naked – rape is rape. I never said otherwise.

    Of course it’s garbage… does that stop people from saying and believing it though?
    No. It doesn’t.
    That’s one example of how women are currently held to a higher standard than men. That’s why holding men to a higher standard than they currently are would move them to being held at the same standard that women are.
    To pick arbitrary numbers- if men are held at a standard of 1 right now, and women are held a 3, holding men responsible at a 3 holds them to a higher standard, but also, to the same standard as women. Does that make more sense?
    Also – I love the way some of you are such idealists thinking that we’ll just make affirmative consent a law (if that is what you are proposing) and everybody will comply and all the fate of every sex offender will be sealed and all people will act and talk the same way and follow these standards and it will be neat and tidy and just so good for everybody.
    Yes, and then the pixie fairies will hand out magical candy flavored condoms to all the hetero couples, and the gnome of everlasting orgasms will grant happy fun-times to everyone.
    Please.
    I like to think that most of us have shown that we’re not complete and utter morons. There’s no magical solution to the problem of rape. What we’re talking about is changing the standards to which we hold people. Doing so will not have an instantaneous effect- it won’t cure the problem over-night, for sure. What it will do is reframe our understanding of what counts as rape, and it will reframe the dialogue about who is responsible for rape. Instead of constantly talking about the ways that women can prevent themselves from getting raped, we can start talking about the ways that everyone can help prevent rape.
    Change happens through a lot of ways, and one of those ways is through dialogue. If we change the way that people think of consent, over time, we can drive that point home, and make people more responsible for their actions.
    Magically over-night?
    No.
    It’s a nice idea, I just think criminalizing touching that isn’t first approved in a verbal contract is – well – sort of sterile and not very realistic.
    It is when you refer to as a verbal contract, yes. It’s not really very sterile at all when your partner is saying “Oh my gods, yes!” You’re stuck on this idea that affirmative, enthusiastic consent has to be a sterile “Can I do X, now” sort of comment. It doesn’t. What it means is that “no means no” isn’t sufficient- you need a “yes” of some kind. It means that a woman who doesn’t say “no” but also doesn’t engage the man isn’t providing consent. It doesn’t really make anything rape that shouldn’t already count, it just changes the way we think of consent so that it’s clearer to people.
    I think it’s more productive to just be clear when you DON’T want to be touched or DON’T want to be in a situation and make it clear so nobody can say you DIDN’T make it clear. If she had once yelled “STOP – I DON’T LIKE THIS” then there would have been very little left to various intrepretations by any of us.
    Except that that isn’t working. I don’t see why it’s so hard for people to get a “yes” before they do things. How hard is it to ask your partner “is this okay?” and get a yes?
    It’s not. It takes ten seconds and it makes sure that you’re not raping someone. I think that is worth ten seconds.
    Women who are drunk, druged or otherwise impared to give consent – we have laws about that already and the problem comes with enforcing them and keeping track of the offenders.
    Except that we send mixed messages- we tell men “Well, no means no” and then we promote this idea that it’s cool to ply women with drinks until they stop saying no. That’s precisely why we need to start changing the ways we talk about rape and the things we’re teaching people about consent. “No means no” was great, except that it lead to people thinking “lack of no means yes!”
    I think it’s easy to say, “If we just had this one rule then this thing would never happen.” But it’s much different when trying to apply it to many people, cultures and also applying criminality to it.
    Again, not saying this would be a magical over-night solution- saying that this would help restructure the ways that we talk about rape and consent, and would help hold everyone to the same standard, and make it clearer what even counts as rape.

  49. Posted April 30, 2007 at 8:05 am | Permalink

    I’ve probably said it a million times already, but roymac rules.

  50. Posted April 30, 2007 at 9:04 am | Permalink

    I’m going to go over this one more time – then I’m done with this thread.
    I watched the video AGAIN and I will try to quantify WHY in my mind there is some question as to whether or not she gave consent to what happened. Some of you aren’t really listening to me, you’re simply picking apart what I say to try to prove your own point.
    I think the only person here who understands what I’m trying to say is possibly UCLA. Also, I really am rather put off by EG and Nina acting like they are the better “vicitim advocates” simply because they stand up against this guy and say it’s wrong PERIOD from every angle – it’s easy to jump on that bandwagon and be accepted here with open arms as the right kind of feminist.
    - In the beginning she appears to laying on the ground “waiting” for him, he does a little swaggar/turn and then gets above her. At that time she LIFTS HER LEGS up which to ME looks like she did as part of the “acting” of the dance.
    -Then he puts her legs over his shoulders and starts bumping her hard – which I think is when her head was hitting the ground. The AAAAGGGGGG!!! sound happens – which I will repeat I DON’T THINK THAT IS HER – it SOUNDS to me like it’s somebody closer to the mic – like the person perhaps recording it because it’s an individual voice we can actually hear clearer and she is down with him and the crowd and I don’t think we’d hear her any more than we would one individual person at the front of the stage. AGAIN – I DON’T KNOW that is MY interpretation of what I am seeing and hearing. Even though he bumps her head at this point – either acidentally or even sort of un-caringly bumping her head I’m pretty sure isn’t criminal – piggish yes – criminal? Don’t know! I also don’t know that his bumping her head would somehow withdraw her consent IF he knew he had bumped her head.
    - When he picks her up she leans into him – she wraps her legs around him. Either she’s feeling like she has no choice but to hold on tight OR she is playing along (I DON’T KNOW!).
    -Then – his very ill-conceived idea of taking her over to the crowd and I’m sure somebody’s hands were all over her – that would make me feel violated – and rather irritated at him for doing that.
    - Then the “oh Gods” and such – again I AM NOT SURE that is her – it sounds like somebody closer to the mic. Even if it IS her (which I don’t think it is) TO ME it sounds like “WOAHH” sort of a thing – not a “STOP” sort of a thing.
    - The way she puts her arm across her chest after he so callously walks away gives me the impression at that point that she did feel violated in some way. At what point, for what reason and if she told anybody, I DON’T KNOW.
    This clip is 48 seconds long.
    We don’t know if we are hearing her or the person filming. We don’t know WHAT she said into his ear – it could have been Affirmative Consent it could have been “put me down!” – I don’t know and I’m not going to pretend to know.
    In the article she states:
    The teen stated “I got carried away, I started to dance as well but I never thought it was going to be like that. I was shocked, my head was hitting the floor.”
    - I can’t tell from that statment if it was the sexual nature of the dancing or the rough way he danced that shocked her – I THINK she might be saying both, but I can’t tell, that’s too vague.
    - The question in my mind is even if he had gotten “Affirmative Consent” (assuming he didn’t – we haven’t heard from him yet and she didn’t say in the article she told him to stop, or that she never told him to go, she simply says she was shocked) don’t you think it STILL could have played out the way that it did – gotten out of hand? Or with the Affirmative Consent is he supposed to tell her in advance everything he is going to do before he does it? Or is he supposed to just get an “Oh yeah baby, I want to.” from her as you all have said? If he’d gotten that at the beginning of the dance – would you all be fine with what happened? The way it happened? How do you know she didn’t give affirmative consent in this case? We don’t know – there has been no mention in the article of what the girl said before or during the dancing and you all keep assuming the voice we hear is her.
    Personally I don’t think a teenager should be considered as being able to give affimative consent to an adult(even if that is’t the law in Trinidad).
    Keep in mind also that he may have thought she was 18 since he was performing at an adult club. I think the club itself bears some responsibility here also.
    Yes, an experiened performer maybe should have realized there might be underage girls in the room – but you don’t know what kind of security pitch that club may have given him. You don’t know if they “guarnteed” him no underage girls would be in the audience – YOU DON’T KNOW what sort of expectiation he could have had based on the booking of the club. I am not going to sit here and pretend to know everything surrounding the situation based on that clip and that article.
    Her dress has no bearing on the situation as far as I’m concerned regarding giving permission. Appearance does not give permission to treat a person a certain way. I don’t care if she was dressed provacativly – if she at any time told him to stop or withdrew her consent – it should have stopped. The only possible reason her appearance/clothing is related at all is that it may have made her appear older than her 15 years.
    You can reject eveything I just said as excuses and such – whatever. We all come to situations from different life experiences behind us and we all bring something different when analyzing a situation.

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