Because the patriarchy has bad aim

After much consideration, I’ve decided not to get into the whole feminist blow-job debate. It’s just asking for trouble. But check out Feministe who has a good post and a roundup of links on the topic. (Feel free to add more links in comments.)
I just can’t bring myself to talk about dick today. But on a related note, check out the latest classy shirt from our friends at Sinful Shirts.

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  1. FOM
    Posted June 19, 2006 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

    Well, I have been reading all about it on the other blogs. Personally, I kind of like it because I get a thrill being able to drive my DH crazy. If he is freshly showered, I am good to go. I don’t see it as degrading to me and he kindly reciprocates. I know, TMI.

  2. Erin
    Posted June 19, 2006 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

    These are the days I want to give up feminism: Until I clicked on that link, I had never even IMAGINED that there was a “blow job controversy”.
    After restraining myself from telling off the “boys-are-icky” Internet trolls, and from noting that *I* like giving head, swallowing cum, and the occasional naughty BDSM play and I’m hardly the brainwashed “sexbot” that they make me out to be, I wanted to slouch off and shower. The comments were just too much to bear – I felt dirty after what I had seen.
    These women are not feminists. I’m sorry. I promised myself I wouldn’t ever say that about anyone (it’s not my place to judge), but they are not. Their “impartial” debate includes several women asking “If sexual preference was a choice, would anyone CHOOSE to sleep with a man?” Excuse me? Several people described mens’ bodies as “gross” and “ugly” and there are a thousand horrible names for penises and cum. None of them are pleasant; all are bombastic. Is it any wonder I felt unclean after reading such hate?
    I am a feminist. I want equal treatment, equal pay. I want respect. I want my (hypothertical) daughters to have the same opportunities as their brothers. I want to b allowed to perform any job I am qualified to perform, regardless of my gender. I want to be able to breastfeed my children in public when necessary. I want easy access to effective birth control and I want the choice to terminate a pregnancy if necessary. I want rapists to go to jail rather than be lionized on national television. I want equal healthcare opportunities for men and women worldwide. I want domestic violence to be recognized for the threat it is. These are reason why I consider myself a feminist.
    I am also a heterosexual woman. I like men and I like their bodies. I have loved several men in my lifetime and I have enjoyed exploring the many facets of sex with them, learning what I like, and what I do not like. I look forward to decades more experimentation and exploration. My feminism does not and should not conflict with my heterosexuality. Being a feminist doesn’t mean that I can only screw in the Cowgirl position – how boring would life be if there were only one “approved” position! Being a feminist doesn’t mean that I have to think a penis or its cum is ugly, nasty, or yucky. That’s a personal decision for every woman to make. Above all, I would never dream of using hateful words to belittle any person’s anatomy.
    I shake my head in wonderment and have to ask: Have we really come to this? A bunch of Internet trolls “representing” feminism and telling us how we’re allowed to have sex? How are they any different from the concervative Christians who tell us how we’re allowed to have sex? We post articles telling the Christians to get out of our bedrooms – will we soon tell off these poser feminists? Could this actually be considered an issue by serious feminists?
    We’ve apparently erased gender inequality all over the world if blowjobs are the new, pressing, hot issue for feminists!
    To all the “feminists” out there who insist I must hate men and sexually subjugate them to my wishes or forfeit the title of feminist: YOU are responsible for giving feminism a bad name. You are what the concervative Christians delight in digging up and flinging at us ‘real’ feminists. You are the reason we are not taken seriously, and are slandered by association. You are hateful, judgmental, terrible people. You are the reason that good people are ashamed to publicly call themselves feminists. You should be ashamed of yourself.
    I shall continue to have sex with my boyfriends in a manner that pleases ME and HIM and NOT in a manner that is “approved” by the Internet trolls who think “feminism” is a great excuse to hate everybody.
    Get out of my goddamned bedroom.

  3. SteveR
    Posted June 19, 2006 at 7:45 pm | Permalink

    30 years after the ERA failed women still make less money than men for equal work. Reproductive rights are erroding fast. Female circumsion runs rampant in the 3rd world.
    What do feminists put their energy into? Talking about blow jobs.
    If these problems still exist 30 years from we will all know why.
    It is time to push yourselves away from the computer, walk out of the WMST building and do something real in the real world for equality.

  4. Jessica
    Posted June 19, 2006 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

    SteveR, give me a break. Feminists do work for all kinds of issues, just like Feministing covers all kinds of stories. What a dumb, cheap shot.

  5. EG
    Posted June 19, 2006 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

    Right. And when we focus only on serious issues, he’ll say that we need to lighten up and get a sense of humor.

  6. Erin
    Posted June 19, 2006 at 8:30 pm | Permalink

    I’m sorry, but SteveR is right.
    LA passed a bill today that says that a fetus’ “life” is worth more than the life of the woman who carries it.
    In preparation for the World Cup, sexual slavery has soared in Europe so that multitudes of women and children can be forced to “serve” the incoming male tourists.
    The very people in charge of U.S. health care are debating whether or not women should be allowed access to birth control and STD preventative medication.
    These man-hating feminists who insist that women who give blow jobs are betrayers and mindless sexbots of the patriarchy are hurting the feminist cause. How can we ever focus on changing the world for good when energy is expended on this nonsense and we feminists are linked to this tripe? We’ll be laughed out of the courthouse.

  7. EG
    Posted June 19, 2006 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    Oh, I don’t know. It’s a silly debate–debates about the shoulds and should nots of freely consensual sex always are. But every movement has its fringe wackos; why should feminism be any different? It’s not like material resources or actual political energies are being diverted away from all the serious and important issues you mention and devoted to the burning question of blow jobs instead. Feminist organizations and activists are campaigning hard against all the vile things you list.
    Honestly, it’s the anti-sex nut jobs in the government who are more worrying than the anti-sex feminists on the internet.

  8. Posted June 19, 2006 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

    EJ, those topics have had extensive coverageon feministing. If you want more, you could always GAFB.

  9. SteveR
    Posted June 19, 2006 at 9:24 pm | Permalink

    It’s not like material resources or actual political energies are being diverted away from all the serious and important issues you mention
    Yes, the people writing about blowjobs probably wouldn’t be doing anything anyway, but the serious feminists who pay attention to them could be using their time toward creating more resources to direct toward the real issues.
    With all of the crap going on in our country talking about these ideas for anything more than 10 min is a waste.
    I’ve seen this story on several blogs already.

  10. EG
    Posted June 19, 2006 at 9:32 pm | Permalink

    Well, sure, but how much attention are the serious feminists really paying? All the comments on this post are pretty dismissive of the whole thing, and with the internet it really doesn’t take much time or effort to respond or post a story on a blog.
    Honestly, I think people pay a lot of attention to responding on issues like that because they’re utterly meaningless–it’s like a light coffee break. It’s the same reason why people, and I include myself, get all wrapped up in the ridiculous saga of whether or not Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes actually had a baby. It doesn’t really matter, there’s no real action to be taken, so we can just waste our time talking about it and take a breather. I think that’s probably the category it falls into. It’s not taking attention away from important stuff; it’s taking attention away from other meaningless stuff. I firmly believe that we all need our meaningless crap.

  11. Posted June 19, 2006 at 9:43 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know — I think the linked post is correct in saying that just because something is sexual does not exclude it from critical analysis in a feminist context. Lord knows there has pretty much always been debate raging somewhere in the feminist community over porn, BDSM, etc. While I find the superficial and dismissive treatment these subjects often recieve disheartening, I do think it’s worth talking about. I also think that the dismissive attitude towards these things as potential topics of serious discussion may reveal something important about societal attitudes towards sex — for instance, why could it be that the power dynamic involved in oral sex is considered a trivial thing to talk about? Isn’t it a very immediate and personally relevant thing for the many bi- or heterosexual women out there?
    In my own personal experience, I have become very aware of the undeniable power dynamic that exists in the context of not just oral sex but a wide variety of sexual acts. And you know what? I “submit,” and enjoy the hell out of it. This is not because I find some kind of satisfaction in assuming my proper “place” in regards to men, or any bizarre notion like that. Of course, I do “just like it” sexually. But in a deeper sense, it’s because such acts, for me at least, highlight the level of trust and mutual understanding — and respect! — that my partner and I have with each other, by playing on these notions of power and appropriating them for our own intentional pleasure, by showing that we can do this taboo thing with each other precisely because we understand that neither of us *actually* has power over the other. And that’s what makes it so titillating (and, in a weird way, comforting), to pretend at this thing for pleasure but know in the back of our minds that we are happily and eagerly consenting equals.
    Did that make sense, or am I just babbling on in my own personal language about my possibly TMI sex life? And, I’d like to add that I’m not necessarily proposing this as some kind of general rule, this is just what I have learned and experienced from my own life.

  12. the_becca
    Posted June 19, 2006 at 9:50 pm | Permalink

    P.S. — All the shaming going on there about men’s bodies = totally not cool. I can’t even wrap my head around that one. Maybe “the spectre of men’s bodies as the superior physique” being “gross,” I can comprehend that, or aggressively phallic imagery, or the various dominating and entitled behavior that is the societal norm for male sexuality, those things, yeah, they’re pretty disgusting. But “male anatomy”=”gross”? How could anyone defend this? (And yeah, it does seem a bit subconsciously or maybe even consciously homophobic).

  13. betsy
    Posted June 19, 2006 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    i don’t see anything wrong with blowjobs, or oral sex in general.

  14. Laina
    Posted June 19, 2006 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    All I have to say on this matter is, no matter how many female, male, or ungendered sexual partners I’ve had, I’ve never had one that I did not enjoy going down on. When I perform oral sex, it is because I genuinely love making my sexual partner enjoy hirself to the greatest possible extent, and if my partners have been truthful to me, this is the case from their sides as well. Why does everything have to be political? Can’t someone have sex to have an orgasm or just to have sex, and can’t someone pleasure someone else because they enjoy seeing them happy and aroused? What ever happened to good happy sex?!

  15. nonwhiteperson
    Posted June 20, 2006 at 1:09 am | Permalink

    As long as people are aware of social constructions and that there should be somewhat of a balance of “blowing” and “getting blown” I’m fine with it.
    To be fair and perhaps evening the balance, I’m one who’s never liked getting blown.

  16. nonwhiteperson
    Posted June 20, 2006 at 1:15 am | Permalink

    As a result, I don’t have to give BJs.

  17. nonwhiteperson
    Posted June 20, 2006 at 1:22 am | Permalink

    And if there isn’t a balance of BJs and getting blown, at least people should ponder why there isn’t a balance. Ah yes, the social construction of the blowjob.

  18. Posted June 20, 2006 at 1:28 am | Permalink

    Gosh, this debate blows.
    In all seriousness: I don’t consider this a frivolous topic, or an indictment of the feminist movement, or anything like that. But I do find the specter on some other blogs of people ordering each other not to perform certain sexual acts to be depressing. I wish people would treat each other with more respect than that.

  19. Posted June 20, 2006 at 1:30 am | Permalink

    nonwhiteperson, that much I’ll agree with. The unexamined orga- oh, I am so not saying that one…

  20. monkey
    Posted June 20, 2006 at 3:38 am | Permalink

    Everything EJ said!

  21. Qi
    Posted June 20, 2006 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    Everything EJ said!

  22. Erin
    Posted June 20, 2006 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

    Thank you monkey and Qi. :)
    EG: Yes, I KNOW those issues have been covered on feministing. That’s my POINT. The people who run this wonderful site know about these very important issues and yet is still indulging in this BJ nonsense. That’s a source of concern for me. I am astonished further by the fact that Jessica et al are the first line of defense against the Christians telling us how to fuck – yet seem to think that “feminists” should be able to do so with impunity. The fact that they tolerate this sort of thing at all by “staying out of the fray” rather than calling it out for the bullshit that it is bothers me. Are we so radicalized that the source of a message matters? Christians are bad because they call women “ugly” and tell us we can only fuck “missionary” style, but feminists are good because they call men “ugly” and tell us we can only fuck “Cowgirl” style? If we’re really so polarized, then we’ve lost sight of what’s important.
    Becca: If I enjoy something sexually, it’s my right to do it and it is NOT up for disucssion. I am, frankly, AMAZED that we feminists fought for prostitution for so long, claiming that empowered women should be able to do what they want with their bodies, yet we think it’s somehow appropriate to chastise women for what they do in the privacy of their bedrooms with their partners! It’s one thing to disagree with prostitution and the exchange of sex for money – I think the establishment hurts society more than it helps us. But blow jobs between two consenting adults? It may sound “reasonable” and “moderate” to waffle on the fence and say that bedroom antics aren’t off limits, but even “moderate” people can be wrong. What I do in my bedroom is not up for debate and discussion. Who are you (or anyone else) to tell me what sexual positions I may or may not like?
    This is a frivilous discussion. The people who started said discussion did so only to denigrate men’s bodies. I’m going to sound like Hujo now, but this time it really is about the men. If you, personally, don’t want to give blow jobs, then by all means don’t do it! But don’t tell every other person on earth what they should or shouldn’t be doing.

  23. Jane Minty
    Posted June 20, 2006 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

    Everything EJ said…not to mention that giving a fantastic blow job actually puts the woman in a great position of power.
    (It goes without saying that my partner is obligated to reciprocate!)

  24. Posted June 20, 2006 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    I am certain that we feminists have the time and mental capacity to worry about aboriton, sex trafficking, and blow jobs. It’s silly to think that this topic is draining resources from other important issues. Feminists have sex lives, and sex is also a political act, it makes sense for us to have a discourse about this.

  25. Posted June 20, 2006 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    You know, the only thing in this discussion that irritates me more than watching someone ordering a group of strangers not to perform a certain sexual act is watching someone ordering a group of strangers not to talk about a certain sexual act.

  26. nonwhiteperson
    Posted June 20, 2006 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    Apparently, giving BJs is empowering to women or just something women really enjoy but the overwhelming support of BJs by feminists is what surprised me. I would be happy if there was an equal amount of enthusiasm about blowing women on men’s blogs.

  27. Posted June 20, 2006 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

    Since masculists specialize in telling people what to do, I doubt they’d be all that offended by a flurry of anti-cunnilingus posts. Masculist blogs suck, and not in a good way; that’s one of the reasons why I don’t participate in them.
    In any case, I think the issue here is not so much that BJs are empowering or whatever; it’s the idea of proscribing what consenting adults do in their bedrooms.

  28. Posted June 20, 2006 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    Incidentally, if anyone’s taking a poll, I’m only interested in reciprocal sex. And I’m also one of those annoying people who plans to go through life with exactly one sexual partner.

  29. EG
    Posted June 20, 2006 at 11:19 pm | Permalink

    Fair enough, EJ. I see your point. Personally, I’m just not exercised about this particular clique because they have no power whatsoever, and I was assuming that that was why the Feministing team wasn’t bothering; you are of course right that their position is equally bullshit.

  30. nonwhiteperson
    Posted June 21, 2006 at 1:37 am | Permalink

    No Tom, The equivalent would be extreme enthusiasm for eating pussy on men’s liberal or feminist blogs. They would assert strongly that eating pussy was empowering and wonderful to men.

  31. sojourner
    Posted June 21, 2006 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    You might enjoy giving blowjobs and it’s most certainly have every right to do it, but it is up for discussion. Everything, including what we do in our bedrooms has a social context. The relationship between “consensual adults� does not exist in vacuum; it involves power dynamics. While I don’t think anyone has the right to tell others not to do what they enjoy doing in bed, I do believe is very valid to discuss why they do it. Why do so many women give unreciprocated oral sex? or why do a lot of women fake their orgasms? I am sure you are familiar with the phrase “the personal is political�.

  32. Erin
    Posted June 21, 2006 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

    sojourner, just because something is a catchy slogan, doesn’t make it true.
    “The personal is political” has a nice alliterative ring to it, but it’s complete bullshit. The basic tenet of feminism is that women should be allowed to live their lives as they please, without oversight from others.
    We don’t discuss whether “holding a job” “hurts women”, for many reasons:
    Logically, we accept that such a broad, sweeping generalization is meaningless. There are very, very few things that are “bad” for everyone or even “all women”, regardless of circumstances.
    Practically, the question is also meaningless: What jobs? Which kinds? What women? What backgrounds? Without intimate knowledge of specifics, there is no meaningful answer to the question. We assume that the peron most familiar with the specifics, i.e. the woman in question, is in the best position to make the decision herself – and we butt out. This is the most important point of feminism – the INDIVIDUAL WOMAN is the best person to decide her life. Not her husband, not her senator, and not a group of doctors or activists.
    Politically, we stay away from the question because we fought a long damn time to be able to hold jobs and we’d rather not reexamine that now. It looks too much like waffling.
    I could reiterate this discussion for a million topics. Things we don’t discuss and leave up to the discretion of the individual woman include:
    Birth Control
    Career Choice
    Partner Choice
    Number of Children
    Spending Habits
    Political Choices
    Religious Choices
    Sexual Activity with Females
    The fact of the matter is, the ONLY reason this subject is “up for discussion” is because the proponents hate men and have come up with a “reasonable” reason to dicuss why we shouldn’t put dicks in our mouths.
    If you honestly think that the personal is up for discussion, prepare to be questioned on the following topics:
    1. Birth Control: The personal is political, after all.
    Do you choose not to use birth control? You should use it. The patriarchy has forced you to refuse to regulate your own body and you are at the mercy of their whims. Get on birth control NOW.
    Do you choose to use birth control? You should stop immediately. You are pouring hormones into your body so that the patriarchy can continue to use your body to pleasure themselves. Those hormones cause mood-swings, unhealthy weight-gain, and may even be linked to cancer. Stop having sex with the patriarchy and get off your birth control NOW.
    2. Career Choice: The personal is still political.
    Do you have a job? You should quit. You have been brainwashed into thinking that you need to compete in a man’s world – a world that is impossible to win in, because the cards are stacked against you. You are a tool of the patriarchy – your labor is a never-ending cycle to keep women subjugated. You need to make money, sure, but do it from home. Start up an Internet site and make sure you don’t employ or come into contact with any men. You should be able to just scrape by if you quit your job now.
    Do you not hold a job? You must get one NOW. You are probably relying on a father or husband; you maybe even raise make and 1babies all day. Are you crazy!? That’s exactly what the patriarchy WANTS!! Get some feminist-balls and get a job. Furthermore, divorce your husband for wanting to keep you in the house to raise his children and cook his meals.
    3. Children.
    Don’t have any? Get some. Every woman should have a baby to reach her full physical potential. It’s a beautiful miracle.
    Got some? You idiot. The patriarchy managed to impregnate you. You are now tied, physically, emotionally, and economically to another human being. You’ll have to subjugate yourself further to the patriarchy just to be able to survive.
    And no matter how many kids you do or don’t have, it’s the wrong number.

    Okay, okay. The point is, if I was actually SERIOUSLY arguing with someone about any of these choices, they’d tell me to fuck off, and rightfully so. They’d say that what they did with their life was THEIR business, not mine. They’d say that they were in a better position to decide for themselves what choices they should make in life than I am. They’d tell me to Mind My Own Business.
    Once again, why blow jobs? They aren’t important. And sexual activity between two consenting adults isn’t dissected when the two adults are both male or both female. Why heterosexual acts?
    Answer: The women who started the topic hate men. They want to make a huge ruckus about how awful men are and how yucky they are.
    When we point out that we can do what we like in our bedrooms and that they should fuck off, they join hands and chant “the personal is political”. But do you really want EVERY ASPECT OF YOUR LIFE picked apart by strangers? Do you not draw a line somewhere and say, “Get lost, it’s my choice”? And if you DO draw a line, why NOT draw the line with sex? What could be more private and personal than what you do with your partner? What could be LESS legitimately up for discussion?
    However, if you think it SHOULD be up for discussion, I’ll make a deal with you. Tell me all the things you like to do sexually – and I’ll explain to you why you should stop them.
    I doubt you’ll listen to me for very long. ;)

  33. nonwhiteperson
    Posted June 21, 2006 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    “But do you really want EVERY ASPECT OF YOUR LIFE picked apart by strangers?What could be LESS legitimately up for discussion?”
    I see now. I didn’t get into it until this thread and only made an observation about the lack of balance in the discussion.

  34. Erin
    Posted June 21, 2006 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    I’m laughing because your observation, nonwhiteperson, was the only “let’s examine this” post that I actually agreed with a little – the question of balance.
    Which is to say, that I support a discussion on sexual reciprocity. If one partner is being satisfied sexually, and the other partner isn’t (and isn’t willing to make changes to fix this), then there’s a problem in the relationship. However, I think the problem is not a sexual one, but a relationship one. More often than not, if one partner is selfish in the bedroom, they are equally selfish outside of the bedroom.
    I guess I should say I support a discussion of what to do about a selfish partner – even a sexually selfish one – but I don’t support a diatribe on how “such-and-so sex act” can NEVER be performed, under ANY circumstances because it’s a) bad for women, b) a tool of the patriarchy, c) nasty, icky, gross, or d) all of the above.

  35. sojourner
    Posted June 21, 2006 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    I did read the last few paragraphs of your post. After…. Just so you know, I did not I did not start this ruckus. I do not hate men. (Oh, and I thought all feminists hate men…?) And I did not say I do not enjoy blowjobs. I find your comments quite offending actually. And I did say that I don’t think anybody has a right to tell another person which one of their sex habits they should feel guilty about. But this is not at all about a person. It’s not like anybody is trying to pry into another person’s life. And of course everything is up for discussion! How can it be not so? It’s called critical thinking. How can you even presume to tell people what they can discuss and what they can’t? If you don’t like the discussion don’t take part in it.

  36. sojourner
    Posted June 21, 2006 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

    Anyways EJ, I don’t think you got the point of my post at all. Why do you seem to think that this is a personal attack on you for giving blow jobs? I am repeating that I don’t think it is legitimate to tell others what choices to make, but it is legitimate to wonder about or to discuss the reasons they make those choices. If they don’t like that they can “fuck off” as you had suggested.

  37. sojourner
    Posted June 21, 2006 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    and BTW the resaon homosexual relations don’t get picked on is that there aren’t so many power relationships involved in those.

  38. Eshew Obfuscation
    Posted June 21, 2006 at 5:14 pm | Permalink

    That’s a gross generalization. I’d hazard that many homosexual relationships involve elements of power. After all, the terms “Top and Bottom” were born solely out of the power dynamic of homosexual relationships.

  39. Jenna
    Posted June 21, 2006 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    Absolutly Sojourner:
    Look, y’all. this whole thing started on Twisty’s blog in typical twisty style. Anyone who reads her knows what she was doing: Using hyperbole to make a point, start a discussion, and vent some rage at the same time.
    So many of these responses remind me of my freshmen when they first have to analyze a book or poem. “Why can’t we just read it and enjoy it, huh? Why do we have to think about it, huh? Why make it so hard?”
    Take this reaction to 10X when you even suggest that people THINK about what they do (or want to do) in bed.
    The answer is that the ability to analyze and apply that analysis to all texts (and that includes sexual acts) may be the only way that we can uncover societal prejudice and PERSONAL prejudice.
    Sorry, kids. The personal is political. Yes, you have the right to make whatever decision you want. That doesn’t ,however, mean you should turn your brain off and never go beyond the surface.
    And, no. I’m not anti-sex or anti-male or anti-hot sex. I give SO blow jobs, we have anal sex, we do BDSM in which I’m the bottom. But, I fully understand where those desires evolved, and why I do them. I don’t clothe them in the guise of “It’s FEMINIST” to act like a slave and have my master beat the crap out of me while calling me a slut.
    Blow jobs can be very much so NOT FEMINIST. There is no problem with bringing to the surface the cultural freight and ideological baggage associated with them. (“Suck my dick” as a pretty rude insult strike a bell?)

  40. Jenna
    Posted June 21, 2006 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

    EO wrote: that’s a gross generalization. I’d hazard that many homosexual relationships involve elements of power. After all, the terms “Top and Bottom” were born solely out of the power dynamic of homosexual relationships.
    And that’s a gross underreading.
    Look, when you have a male and a female in a sexual relationship, the ideological baggage of that is always already evoked. If you need lessons on what that baggage is…read some basic theory. How that comes out, is delt with, is up to the individual couple.
    Homosexual relations do not carry the always already baggage. However, that doesn’t mean that baggage isn’t present in the participants, or can’t be added to the relationship.
    Oh, and for the record, playing with power is far, far different than actual power struggles.

  41. Eshew Obfuscation
    Posted June 21, 2006 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    I have no idea what you just said…
    but according to…
    you are owed two beers (atleast).

  42. Erin
    Posted June 21, 2006 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

    sojourner, Whisky Tango Foxtrot?
    Before you get “offended” by my posts, I NEVER said YOU started the topic. Did you even read the posts that Jessica linked to? If not, no wonder you are so confused. The women there were saying that they hate men, dicks, and cum. Which is why I said:
    “The women who started the topic hate men. They want to make a huge ruckus about how awful men are and how yucky they are.”
    Please don’t assume that I’m saying YOU, personally, did anything. Geez.

  43. A Guy
    Posted June 21, 2006 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    No Tom, The equivalent would be extreme enthusiasm for eating pussy on men’s liberal or feminist blogs. They would assert strongly that eating pussy was empowering and wonderful to men.
    Is this really necessary? Men talk about how they love eating pussy all the time. What’s more, they share how empowering this is for both men and women to others quite often. In fact, there is a term for it. It is called “sexual harrassment”.

  44. Erin
    Posted June 21, 2006 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    By the way, sojourner and Jenna, my offer still stands:
    Since you think the personal is always up for discussion, tell us what you like to do in the bedroom and we’ll discuss whether or not you need to quit and why. We’ll also deal with whether you can call yourself a feminist if you don’t quit.
    I mean, you’re saying that this sort of behavior is okay. So step up to the plate!
    Oh, and be sure you’re aware of the “discussion” that you’re defending:
    Gems include:
    “Flame me if you will, but I posit nevertheless that no woman, since the dawn of the patriarchal co-option of human sexuality, has ever actually enjoyed this submissive sexbot drudgery. There’s a reason that deep-throating a funk-filled bratwurst makes a person retch – It’s fucking gross.”
    “Who wants that thing in her mouth, anyway? *shudder*”
    “Thank you Twisty for the brave truth. I suspect men would agree (where does the term “that sucksâ€? come from?) and that’s also why they get off on it.”
    “Be there a woman with soul so dead, she actually enjoys giving head?”
    “Pushing something roughly the size of a cucumber repeatedly into my mouth for about as long as a guy thinks a bj ought to last, then, when the gag reflex is entirely stimulated, depositing a oddly-textured, foul-tasting wad of warm gook into my mouth — nuh, uh. I’m done.”

    Fine discussion indeed! That’s just the first page. So, forgive me, S, if I didn’t make it clear that THEY are being hateful and not you, but I just thought everyone had linked over by now. (sheepish olive branch)

  45. Erin
    Posted June 21, 2006 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    At least, Commentator, we haven’t reached the point where men are told they cannot eat pussy without being unmasculine. Thank god. :)

  46. Jenna
    Posted June 21, 2006 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

    EJ posted: “The women who started the topic hate men. They want to make a huge ruckus about how awful men are and how yucky they are.”
    And I think Twisty would laugh her little ass off if she heard you say that. She has male friends. She’s said that before. It isn’t about her hating men, or loving men. It’s about her frustration with a trend she considers disturbing.
    Yes. It was hyperbolic. it was overstated, it was understandable. However, she is not responsible for the people who respond.
    And, EJ, the way you phrased your response indicated that ANY questioning of BJ’s or any analyis of a sexual act was a repugnant thing. That’s why your post was irritiating.
    now, you could be blowing off steam as well, and you are entitled to that. I can’t help but think that your ire, though, might be reserved for more deserving topics, like the folks who make blowjobs about humiliation and discomfort and insult in the first place.

  47. Jenna
    Posted June 21, 2006 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

    Since you think the personal is always up for discussion, tell us what you like to do in the bedroom and we’ll discuss whether or not you need to quit and why. We’ll also deal with whether you can call yourself a feminist if you don’t quit.
    Uh, EH, I already did. Learn how to either a) scroll or b) read.
    I even already said those actions weren’t feminist. What exactly are you missing?

  48. Posted June 21, 2006 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

    nonwhiteperson writes:
    No Tom, The equivalent would be extreme enthusiasm for eating pussy on men’s liberal or feminist blogs. They would assert strongly that eating pussy was empowering and wonderful to men.
    Is there some nascent anti-cunnilingus movement that I’ve missed? I have had very antifeminist men criticize my lack of sexual history by brutally asking “So have you ever tassed p—y juice?”
    In fact, I gotta say I agree with Commentator: Almost every time I have heard a man praise cunnilingus, it has been within the context of at least marginal sexual harassment, or as a way of bragging about his own sexual experience or prowess.
    None of this is to say that I’m anti-cunnilingus. I’ve never tried any of this stuff; I’m still waiting for the right partner. I’m not a virginity pledger, but I do plan on waiting until I’m in a serious long-term relationship.
    I do know that I’m someone who enjoys giving people pleasure in other ways, and am uncomfortable sitting passively when people are doing pleasant things to or for me, so it’s hard to imagine that I’d get any great thrill out of sitting back and passively receiving non-reciprocal orgasms. That has never been how I roll.

  49. Posted June 22, 2006 at 12:57 am | Permalink

    I’ve got this wacky idea that blogs are for the people who write them to express whatever the hell they’re thinking about and want to share. I chimed in on Twisty’s discussion, and disagreed with her. I’m not overly put out by the fact that her views and mine are so opposed. If I did, I’d stop reading her blog.
    I certainly don’t think she has an obligation to either tailer her views to suit me/other members of her audience, OR to avoid posting about something she’d clearly been thinking about, that being blowjobs = icky.
    I think the aftermath of the post was overreactionary, but hey. Clearly those people who contributed to that on their own blogs are also covered by the “it’s your blog” rule.
    Sometimes devoting resources (both brain- and computer-related) to something other than the big issues is necessary. And sometimes some people can’t understand that those smaller issues are, in fact, not big. C’est la vie.

  50. Posted June 22, 2006 at 3:47 am | Permalink

    Or as Freud might have said: Sometimes a penis is just a penis.

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